Author Topic: Motorcycle streamliner steering/counter steering question  (Read 6696 times)

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Offline Choptop

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Motorcycle streamliner steering/counter steering question
« on: September 28, 2008, 08:44:11 PM »
I've been told that the way in which one pilots a streamliner changes from steering to counter steering and back again as the speeds go up... true or rumor? :cheers:

landracing

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Re: Motorcycle streamliner steering/counter steering question
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2008, 09:22:40 PM »
You would have to ask a motorcycle streamliner pilot that question. They are few and far between... but what  you state has been stated by some riders of these machines of the past...

JonAmo

Offline Rocky R

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Re: Motorcycle streamliner steering/counter steering question
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2008, 09:45:42 PM »
All I can tell you is from my own experiences and each machine I'm sure is unique in certain ways. I've been lucky to drive both center hub steering streamliners, conventional fork streamliners, and on Tenacious II, something a little in between. I've even been told center hub steering doesn't work.

What I've found is all 3 of the streamliners I've driven steered basically the same. To go left you have to steer right and initiate lean angle. As the bike lays over you follow it. Picture the palm of your hand with a broomstick balancing on top with the bristly end in the air. To make it lean and go left you would have to move your hand to the right to initiate lean angle. Because you're strapped in the cockpit, you don't have the benefit of body english so steering is all you have. It takes a little getting used to and most motorcycle streamliner pilots have put her down once or twice in pursuit of speed. If they haven't, they're not trying hard enough... :cheers:

And for the record...center hub steering, if done correctly, works just fine.

Rocky

Online Elmo Rodge

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Re: Motorcycle streamliner steering/counter steering question
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2008, 10:43:57 PM »
I asked Sam one time "How do you make your head do that?" regarding the counter steer deal. He said (In so many words) "You want to go left, push on the left side, and so on. Made sense to me.  :-D Wayno

Offline 1212FBGS

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Re: Motorcycle streamliner steering/counter steering question
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2008, 11:55:23 PM »
Center hubs are on 2 of the fastest record holders and yes they work great... I have 2 different center hub designs and a dual leading link design in my shop, just the builders preference.....as for the steering thing, the rumor is that the steering input direction changes the faster you go....nope just a rumor... the real fact is your steering might change depending on the side wind as you go past the gap in the mountains... counter steering is the same as for a standard bike except the luxury of being able to use body English

Offline High Gear

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Re: Motorcycle streamliner steering/counter steering question
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2008, 01:10:24 PM »
Absolutely correct, push left to go left etc. The only time that changes is when something like the wind or a rut causes the bike to move or lean and then you have to do the broom stick balancing trick.

That's the story with the Arrow streamliner anyway.

Gary
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Offline ack

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Re: Motorcycle streamliner steering/counter steering question
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2008, 04:06:35 PM »
For what it's worth I posted this a long while back.

You have the steering thing wrong. At any thing above trials riding speeds the way you steer a motorcycle is turn left to go right and vise versa.  The old myth about steering differently at various speed is just that.

The way this works is when you turn the front rotating wheel left the gyro effect creates a force which acts upon the forks through the axle and tries to rotate the bike mass about the front axle.  In this case clockwise looking at the back of the bike.  Because the friction of the tires and the ground the bike begins to fall to the right. If the bike is falling right faster than you want you then turn right to use the gyro force in the other direction to keep it from falling too far.  Once you have established the angle of lean required to maintain the bike in a steady turning state the front wheel will be turned in the direction you are turning.  The bike in this state is able to keep from falling over by the action of the g force exerted on the mass of the bike and rider by the angular velocity (speed and rate of turn).  The faster you go around a given turn the more you have to lean the bike to maintain this equilibrium.  It?s not quite as simple as this as there are other effects from the gyro of the rear wheel and on a sit up bike you can adjust your body to affect changes in center of gravity.

Offline Eric_Noyes

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Re: Motorcycle streamliner steering/counter steering question
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2008, 03:20:22 PM »
This rumor may have started when someone was describing the rider inputs when the streamliner is on the skids (or training wheels) at that point you have to turn right to go right because the streamliner is unable to lean into the turn.  Once the liner is balanced on the motorcycle wheels; the rider’s control inputs are similar to a conventional motorcycle: turn left (push on right bar) to initiate a turn to the right.

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Motorcycle streamliner steering/counter steering question
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2008, 03:33:41 PM »
In one of the Keith Code bike riding schools I've taken -- we took turns on his "countersteering trainer bike".  It's got outriggers with wheels -- about four feet either side of the centerline.  It forces the rider to turn the steering towards the way he wants to turn -- helping the rider learn that "countersteering" works, regular steering doesn't.  I suppose it's like turning into the sidecar (on hacks) -- boyoboy, it's difficult to make the turn when you're (I'm) used to leaning and countersteering.  I expect the effect would be about the same on a liner bike with the skid/side wheels down.

I learned steering well enough that once upon a time -- a deer ran out of the woods and across the highway RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME!  I pushed hard on the left bar and swerved left (as the process was working), and missed Bambi.  A few hundred yards down the road I stopped to clean my underpants and took a moment to think through the incident.  When I thought about it -- I did it wrong - would've hit the deer.  Countersteering becomes (almost must become) second nature to work effectively.
Jon E. Wennerberg
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Offline Freud

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Re: Motorcycle streamliner steering/counter steering question
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2008, 03:44:27 PM »
According to SSS:

A few hundred yards down the road I stopped to clean my underpants and took a moment to think through the incident.

I have lived with a truism for years.

Defecate or go blind.

Between those two conditions, you probably had your sight during the entire adventure.
Constipation could have removed all visual clues.

FREUD


Since '63

Blue

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Re: Motorcycle streamliner steering/counter steering question
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2008, 09:59:52 PM »
Having experience with many different race bikes and no streamliners (so ignore me if you don't think this opinion is applicable), I can tell you that steering angle, gyroscopic effects and trail have all combined to create every possible combination of high vs. low speed, turn-in vs. turn-out, countersteer vs. straight-steer, etc. feel and impression.  Even on the bikes that I had to force the steering in the direction of the turn, watching the steering entering a turn at any speed revealed classic countersteer turn initiation.  Many bikes when set up the way I liked them required massive amounts of countersteer force to lean over at high speed, were neutral at lower speeds, and fell over at pit speeds.  In may high speed S turns, the bike would lift the front off of the ground with no acceleration and virtually no change in feel.  gyroscopic effects are impressive.

I theorize that this has little translation to LSR with low turn rates and very high speeds.

However, I would expect that whether the feel of the bike causes us to think that we are countersteering or not, we are.  In my experience, feel changes with speed, so that may explain the so-called "reversal".