Author Topic: Somebody help clarify this  (Read 42660 times)

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Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2014, 10:12:29 AM »
It was definately a down run. We couldn't run those numbers on a return run due to a shorter distance to the clock.
  Sid.

Offline fastesthonda_jim

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2014, 10:49:59 AM »
Slim,
Al did his during World Finals one year.  His "Down" run was actually "Up" and his Record run was "Down" as in back towards the highway.  In the not so olde days, prior to Nolan White's fatal crash on his return run, all qualifying runs were done going North and all early morning record runs were done South towards the highway. 
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Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2014, 11:49:33 AM »
Slim,
Al did his during World Finals one year.  His "Down" run was actually "Up" and his Record run was "Down" as in back towards the highway.  In the not so olde days, prior to Nolan White's fatal crash on his return run, all qualifying runs were done going North and all early morning record runs were done South towards the highway. 
Knapp
We only did that one time.
  Sid.

Offline PorkPie

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2014, 12:25:35 PM »
The time slip shows the first run from Al for his "B" class record at the World Finals 2002....this run was the direction from the WF starting line down to Floating Islands....

On the return run, Al blew the engine in the middle of the measured mile....and was coasting through the mile...just enough to make a 405 average for FIA....if the he didn't blew the engine the record could be in the range of 420 mph...he was on his return run better than on his first run....

Al run the smaller displacement to give Nolan the opportunity to go the big displacement with his twin engine streamliner....Nolan had his accident the day before....

After the run Al was good for a couple cans of beer....I done some nice picture of his smile....
Pork Pie

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Offline fastesthonda_jim

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2014, 05:44:36 PM »
Hey, Sid,
What's the "it" we only did one time?  I'm thinking you mean ran an FIA record in the middle of an SCTA meet, because it was a bit strange. 
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Offline Glen

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2014, 06:08:17 PM »
Correction, Nolan's crash was a qualifying run to the south as he felt he could really make a fast run to the north for his return run. All 3 chutes failed. I was the one who had to cut the cage off. The afternoon the day before he and son Rick brought me a picture of his car and we talked about his plans for the runs he planned the next morning. A sad day for all of LSR.
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Online TrickyDicky

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2014, 07:41:13 AM »
The time slip shows the first run from Al for his "B" class record at the World Finals 2002....this run was the direction from the WF starting line down to Floating Islands....

On the return run, Al blew the engine in the middle of the measured mile....and was coasting through the mile...just enough to make a 405 average for FIA....if the he didn't blew the engine the record could be in the range of 420 mph...he was on his return run better than on his first run....

...

Thomas,

The timing slip shows the class as "A/BFS" so presumably the engine class was "A"?  :-D  Perhaps you slipped into 1930s terminology ...

More seriously, what I don't understand is why the 5-mile speed of 421.097 mph apparently didn't lead to an SCTA record.  On the return run Al would have gone through the 5-mile before the engine blew in the FIA measured mile.  If he was running faster than the first run this should have been enough to set an A/BFS record.

Oh, and can someone explain "BNI International Record"?  There are seven (one of which is Al Teague) listed on the SCTA web site, set between 1999 and 2004.  Does anyone try to set BNI International Records any more or are these frozen in history?

Thanks to all who can contribute to my understanding.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 08:06:37 AM by TrickyDicky »

Offline Ron Gibson

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2014, 09:39:23 AM »
Impound used to be in the mud about the 9. The Mayer is right uptown now. :cheers: :cheers:

Ron
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Offline dw230

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2014, 12:53:36 PM »
At that WF meet SCTA and FIA records did not run concurrently. Running the FIA was under the supervision of the late Land Speed Authority(LSA). Separate fees, officials and all the associated etc. BNI International records were the left over LSA records set under FIA procedures. BNI stopped involvement with FIA several years ago and those BNI International records were shown in the rule book until finally left for prosperity.

Mike Cook and his Shootout event are now the exclusive sanction of FIA/FIM records at Bonneville by decree of the organizations.

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Offline PorkPie

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2014, 01:07:31 PM »
The time slip shows the first run from Al for his "B" class record at the World Finals 2002....this run was the direction from the WF starting line down to Floating Islands....

On the return run, Al blew the engine in the middle of the measured mile....and was coasting through the mile...just enough to make a 405 average for FIA....if the he didn't blew the engine the record could be in the range of 420 mph...he was on his return run better than on his first run....

...

Thomas,

The timing slip shows the class as "A/BFS" so presumably the engine class was "A"?  :-D  Perhaps you slipped into 1930s terminology ...

More seriously, what I don't understand is why the 5-mile speed of 421.097 mph apparently didn't lead to an SCTA record.  On the return run Al would have gone through the 5-mile before the engine blew in the FIA measured mile.  If he was running faster than the first run this should have been enough to set an A/BFS record.

Oh, and can someone explain "BNI International Record"?  There are seven (one of which is Al Teague) listed on the SCTA web site, set between 1999 and 2004.  Does anyone try to set BNI International Records any more or are these frozen in history?

Thanks to all who can contribute to my understanding.


The "B" is the FIA class - official it called Cl. 10....the biggest displacement is 11.....when we talk about FIA records, we (historian) are saying A, B , C.....which means 11, 10, 9....

under SCTA the biggest is AA

sorry for the confusion...I wrote this automatically.....

BNI International Records....when they run FIA records at the World Finals ..... Jim True and Don Vesco in 2001, Al Teague in 2002...the measure to the same time the Mile to BNI/SCTA and wrote this into the BNI Record book - this way Jim True run FIA 253 and BNI 248 - but this BNI was not set under the standard regulations....qualifying and next morning return run.....
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 01:20:09 PM by PorkPie »
Pork Pie

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Online TrickyDicky

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2016, 03:05:33 PM »
Into this topic I now place a question that could make me the most unpopular person writing into this forum ...... ever. (beating Propster right out of the park). 

Did Al Teague set the FIA flying start kilometre record at the speed stated on the FIA website?

The FIA lists Al Teague's flying start kilometre record in A - I - 11, on the 21st August 1981, as 425.050 mph (684.052 kph) for the flying start kilometre.  The mile average on the same day is recorded as 409.695 mph (659.340 kph). 

I was not there and I have not seen the FIA timesheets for the runs that Al made, but I have now been shown copies of SCTA timing slips that were faxed to a journalist in the UK on 6th September 1991 and subsequently published, showing the speeds recorded along the course for runs at 5.52 pm and 6.40 pm.

If these are accurate and if they refer to the two runs that were used to average for the record speeds and would have been subsequently ratified by the FIA, then the published record of 425 mph cannot be a accurate.

I am not able to copy by scanning the document that I have (and that would be unfair on those involved)  but I shall quote the figures and I have  to suggest that they do not confirm such a high speed.  Al set a kilometre record that day but not at the (higher) speed that every one has since had to aim at plus 1%. 

Down run @ 5.52 pm

2 1/4 mile - no speed stated
3 mile - 387.067 mph
4 mile - 408.121 mph
Kilo - 422.438 mph
132 trap - 432.692 mph
5 mile - 425.230 mph

My only query with this string is that I thought the 132 trap would have come at the end of mile 5.

Return run @ 6.40 pm

(the order is reversed on the slip to follow the passage of the car).

132 trap - 384.615 mph
5 mile - 394.602 mph
Kilo - 398.577 mph
4 mile - 411.852 mph
3 mile 351.627 mph.

The FIA work with averages of time for each pass but they are rigid that the timed section has to remain the same piece of track or salt.  So each mile 5 is paired, then mile 4 and so on.  The kilo is it appears is on its own located between 4 and 5.

The speeds we see can be loosely averaged to give an indication of the records.

Mile - match both of the 4 mile of 408.121 and 411.852 to give 409.987 mph
Kilo - match just 422.438 and 398.577 to this gives 410.52 mph

The average for mile 5 is from 425.230 and 394.602 and these give 409.916.  This pairing gave way to the slightly better mile 4 figure.

Someone may have written a figure down incorrectly in the time attained for one of the kilometre passes.  Not even by using the fastest mile speed can Al Teague have set a record of 425.050 with only a single pass where just one distance is timed to give an average speed at 425.230 mph.   

My questions are - has the FIA a correct record 'on their books'?  and did Al Teague ever set records on the same pair of runs that differed by 16 mph between the mile and kilo?

Has anyone got better information?

Malcolm UK


The kilo record is being officially reconsidered.  Information from David Tremayne via Grand Prix Plus.

Coincidentally, the FIA Land Speed Records Commission is looking at the figures for Elwin ‘Al’ Teague’s kilometre run with his Speed- O-Motive Spirit of ’76 streamliner back in 1991. When I received this information to consider, as a member of that Commission, I was initially shocked that some retrospective correction was under consideration regarding a man I have long regarded to be a very fine fellow.

He piloted his beautiful homebuilt single-engined automotive pencil, which he affectionately called ‘Betsy’, to a class record speed of 409.978 mph for the mile and 425.050 mph for the kilometre at Bonneville that year. He told me when we met up a few months later: “I hope one day that I might get to be considered in the same stories as Ilston and Cobb [sic, he was referring to Le Recordman George Eyston and his erstwhile rival John Cobb],” without the faintest idea that, in going faster than either of them had in the Thirties, he was already standing proud in their illustrious company.

Over the years doubts have arisen over that kilo record, particularly after Tom Burkland beat Al’s mile speed but not the kilo, since there was such a large discrepancy between Al’s two marks.

It says everything about the fraternity of land speed racing – and about the character and integrity of Al Teague - that it was Al himself, rather than Tom, who was most concerned about the kilo speed. Incredibly, such is his disquiet that he is asking the Commission to rescind his kilo record in the belief that it was subject to an arithmetic error.

“I believe there has been an error in calculation of my 1991 Spirit of 76 kilo record speed,” he says, “and ask that the FIA void my kilo speed and allow Tom Burkland's to be certified with the FIA rather than remain the holder of an obvious error. However, if the appropriate documentation can be located from my 1991 record runs, I would be very pleased to have the corrected kilo speed listed as my team’s honest achievement.”

Now that truly is heroic, and summarises why the man in the machine will always be the more crucial part of the equation.


I hope David will not mind me quoting so extensively from the Russian Grand Prix edition of GP+.

Offline PorkPie

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2016, 07:51:03 AM »
Tricky,

at first thanks for getting this old note back to the light and the information from David.

More information about this 425....

it was before Al set his last FIA record in 2002 when he has starts to talk with the FIA, that the FIA correct the list.

Jane was so kind and had sent me a photo of Al's 91 FIA record certification...I was also one who was confused about the numbers in FIA record list...and on the certification - in FIA tradition - the kilo speed was in km/h....

converting the km/h into mph it was 425 mph...

Talking the same year to Al at the salt he was very surprised when I told him this speed...he never had the idea to do a converting of the speed...so he was not aware of this number-

Al checked his information and a while later he contact me that this has to be an error that someone mixed a one way speed as the average of both runs....or something like that

so he starts to talk with the FIA...the answer to that time was more or less....it is so in the book....

Al would be the last who likes to have a record he had no rights for....he is a great example for one fair sportsman....

if now, also with the rewriting of the record lists after all the rule changes, and so I understand David's note, finally they follow the wish from Al to take care of the correct number, it would be great....especially for him and for the speed community.....

By the way, in 2002, when Nolan White tried to go for this record....this mistake was discussed at the salt with the "FIA" person....without any result...
Pork Pie

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Offline Malcolm UK

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2016, 08:34:55 AM »
I asked the question on this forum in 2008 purely as a way of obtaining accurate information on what happened when Al set the records in the supercharged class.

I had not expected Al to bring up the kilo speed with the FIA or for that organisation (according to UK representative on the records commission) to heed his request to review the figures.  Run figures which they and ACCUS/USAC (as the governing body) will surely have kept.

I only know the Burklands from passing them on the salt and e mail correspondence, however if they (Tom and the family team) have beaten the FIA mile and kilo speeds then that should be acknowledged.

In view of the speeds in the smaller capacity supercharged class, the '425' would be an admirable target to aim for anyway.

[A final thought - I hope the FIA consider long and hard the ratification fee (Euros) which would have been payable].




 
Malcolm UK, Derby, England.

Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2016, 11:35:49 AM »
As most of us know, Al has no interest in claiming something we never achieved. Nolan got in Al's face about this at one point that I thought was in really bad taste. Al just wants this corrected.
  Sid.

Online TrickyDicky

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Re: Somebody help clarify this
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2016, 11:51:32 AM »
Run figures which they [the FIA] and ACCUS/USAC (as the governing body) will surely have kept.
 

Really???  :-o