Accident Data Acquisition

[saltfever]

The only one I can think of is British publishing.  It was not an LSR accident as such but it involved the UKs Outright Land Speed Record holder and two reports were made publi(snip . . . )
If there was data acquired from a car, how would it be analysed and presented in the USA?
Malcolm UK

Malcom and Advanti I think the "public" reports he was referring to were mention in the 1st reply by Jon. I am not aware of any accident reports available to the general public by SCTA. Evidently, Jon says that is not true. I have not pursued SCTA to find out but will do so in the future.

Accelerometer data could be one more tool used by an engineer in accident reconstruction. I can imagine it would be incredibly useful data when iterating an FEA design and understanding impact forces.  I am not suggesting it needs universal public exposure. My point is, that if better LSR data was available to safety engineers then improved products may enhace the safety of the LSR community.   

[saltfever]

After Eric Medlin's death during a low speed (110 mph) accident in practice; John Force changed his outlook on safety. Many changes were made. One of them was to ask Ford to install a"crash box" in the cars. Admittedly, this is a big bucks team with high powered engineering resources. However, rate sensor (accelerometer) technology is maturing and costs are comming down everyday. This company is trying to introduce lower cost products.
http://www.systron.com/pro_rate%20sensors.asp

Low" cost means something different to everybody reading this. Ultimately it comes down to cost vs benefit. I am not suggesting this cost should be borne by LSR individuals. I don't know costs yet but I am still looking into it. A box about the size of an MSD 6A and a few hundred $$ might be interesting. Everybody benefits from rule book safety based on experience (good or bad) and good science and engineering.  Crash data is a tool an association can use to make good safety decisions. So the question is; can a box be made that is affordable by an association for the benefit gained.

[Glen]

FYI, SCTA does not publish accident reports. I doubt they ever will.

[Rick Byrnes]

Malcom touches on the fact that no LSR organization in the US is going to publish actual investigative results or opinions about accident investigation.
However, very quickly, rule changes happen that try to eliminate the root cause of the accident, and address other safety issues the accident points out.
Point in case, the Coolant fire, and melting of air hoses this past year.
Our sanctioning bodies are reactive organizations not pro active.  If it were not this way we would probably be legislated out of racing our cars and bikes.
I wish I could know some specific details about each incident, but it is not happening soon and It probably is not in the best interest in the "sport" if the entire world knows all details. 

[Larry Forstall]

Going fast isn't safe, never will be. I think the SCTA does a remarkable job with inspections and rules. One thing they cannot control is the rider/driver's thoughts as they traverse the course. I know I and I expect most have pushed further than we felt comfortable. On a return record run most would not lift until after the problem. As Wild Willy Borsch told me "If you can see the crowd, you're in trouble". I believe several recent fatalies might have been caused by this mindset. They still race motorcycles on the Isle of Man on a course that becomes more dangerous each year as speeds increase. Why, because the racers are willing to take the risk. Short of psychological testing, which we would all fail,  our organization rightly trusts proven safety and construction methods. These methods are improved each year but so are the speeds. That's all one can do.

[landracing]

Thats not 100% true Scott.... If you enter an event and you are at the competition, you are a competitor.... You may have to consult.... There was a fatality at an SCTA event, it was a motorcycle.... I am very vague on the name or the name of the vehicle....

Anybody know who???

I know who knows....

JonAmo

[saltfever]

All good points. SCTA has never short-changed safety and are highly motivated to do a good job. They investigate accidents to learn and improve. Right now it is a crap-shoot wether a vehicle will have any kind of accelerometer data to aid in an investigation. There are a few well heeled cars with them, but they are rare and the use of the data is proprietary and belongs to the owner who may or may not choose to share data. That is the way it should be. However, if there was an SCTA box in every vehicle they could collect that data. It could assist in their investigation but it could also be given to manufacturers of safety equipment. I'm not saying publish any kind of report. For the reasons mentioned, that would be ill advised.  However, LSR is one venue that is not collecting on-board crash data. My suggestion is not to publish a report but give the data to manufacturers that request it in their research to improve safety equipment for us. 

As Scott indicates my diesel pickup has an "event recorder". Some of the key components must be getting very cheap simply due to OEM volumes. Maybe an OEM unit could be bought from their supplier. I realize the idea is simplistic. It takes a lot more than a idea to design, build, and test a device. However, there are some very smart people in LSR. If cost was not a show-stopper they might be interested in development. My point is you don't need a box for all 500 entrants. A routine could be developed requiring only 15-25 shared among all vehicles. Everyone stops to get a timing slip. It could be as simple as handing over a box the size of a cigarette pack in exchange for the coveted piece of paper 

[bearingburner]

There was a motorcycle fatality in 1972 I believe. The driver was warming up his motorcycle  streamliner without being strapped in and flopped it .

[Glen]

Bearing burner, I think you are wrong.  I have a list of all known fatalities on the salt. There are none in SCTA on a motorcycles. I was on the emergency response team and from 1984 until 2006 I wrote all of the accident reports at El Mirage, Muroc and Bonneville for SCTA / BNI. Before you ask the list is not available. There is a plaque for those that gave their lives at the base of Windover Will in west Wendover.

[Saltfever]

DAQ = Data Acquisition System.

I am resurrecting this old thread simply because of the interest shown about crash worthiness and the controversy about Jack’s 5050. Maybe attitudes are changing or newbies to the forum will find it interesting. If you find it interesting be warned that most everyone else is “con”.  What do you think?

A small box (the DAQ accelerometer) could be handed out at the start line and secured to a common interface that everyone has welded their roll cage. The box would be unfastened and handed over when getting the timing slip. Something the size of a cigarette pack could be unfastened in a few seconds. Welding a small attachment point to a cage is immaterial and would be essentially no cost to the racer. If there was no accident then the DAQ would be returned to the start line to be re-used again. Only a few DAQs would be needed with this round-robin scenario instead of needing one for every entrant (about 500+). An SD card uses so little power a single, on-board battery should last all day and they all could be charged at night. I am not an EE and can not estimate the cost of such a system. However, I do know that accelerometers that cost $600-$700 a few years ago now cost less than $100. OEMs now have “event recorders” in your car. This technology is now so mature the cost is trivial compared to the valuable information we could get.

If you resent me bringing this up then simply go away or use your “delete” finger. I will not keep making comments to keep this “live”. If there is no interest it will die a very quick death.

[manta22]

DAQ = Data Acquisition System.

I am resurrecting this old thread simply because of the interest shown about crash worthiness and the controversy about Jack’s 5050. Maybe attitudes are changing or newbies to the forum will find it interesting. If you find it interesting be warned that most everyone else is “con”.  What do you think?

A small box (the DAQ accelerometer) could be handed out at the start line and secured to a common interface that everyone has welded their roll cage. The box would be unfastened and handed over when getting the timing slip. Something the size of a cigarette pack could be unfastened in a few seconds. Welding a small attachment point to a cage is immaterial and would be essentially no cost to the racer. If there was no accident then the DAQ would be returned to the start line to be re-used again. Only a few DAQs would be needed with this round-robin scenario instead of needing one for every entrant (about 500+). An SD card uses so little power a single, on-board battery should last all day and they all could be charged at night. I am not an EE and can not estimate the cost of such a system. However, I do know that accelerometers that cost $600-$700 a few years ago now cost less than $100. OEMs now have “event recorders” in your car. This technology is now so mature the cost is trivial compared to the valuable information we could get.

If you resent me bringing this up then simply go away or use your “delete” finger. I will not keep making comments to keep this “live”. If there is no interest it will die a very quick death.

To get good data I think you would need three accelerometers to record all three coordinates: X, Y, & Z. Plus it should have rate gyros to record rotation in all three planes as well. I haven't quite decided if it would be necessary to have exactly the same mounting points in each vehicle...Things are more complicated than they appear.

Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

[Freud]

Glen, a man did die in a 250 cc streamline motorcycle in what was at that time the warm up area. He died of burns.

Matt, were you there when that happened?

Where is Dolan when he could answer even with details?

FREUD

[Saltfever]

To get good data I think you would need three accelerometers to record all three coordinates: X, Y, & Z. Plus it should have rate gyros to record rotation in all three planes as well. I haven't quite decided if it would be necessary to have exactly the same mounting points in each vehicle...Things are more complicated than they appear.  Regards, Neil   Tucson, AZ

I agree, Neil, is not a trivial matter. To the ignorant, things are always easy or low cost and since I am not and EE I am uninformed about true costs. My guess is development and testing would be far more costly that the DAQ itself. The cost of rate sensors and accelerometers has plummeted in the past years. Systron Donner makes a 3 axis rate sensor the size of a sugar cube. OEMs use accelerometers in air bag systems and those quantities have driven down costs. I am only proposing an idea hoping it might have enough merit to get some really smart people interested. Sharing 10 or 20 units among 500 people drastically reduces costs.

To be effective it needs to be located on the CG or as close as possible. To be interchangeable there should be a universal bolt pattern or attachment mechanism. This could be a simple plate welded to the cage. That is a no-cost item compared to the “lateral restraint” issue we have all accepted. But if a DAQ could be made for 1/6 the cost of the HANS, maybe racers would install them. However, if SCTA owned the DAQ, they own the data . . . just like current accident investigations. Nothing would change as to how SCAT does accident investigations now. But it would give them incredibly more useful information.

[Glen]

Glen, a man did die in a 250 cc streamline motorcycle in what was at that time the warm up area. He died of burns.

Matt, were you there when that happened?

Where is Dolan when he could answer even with details?

FREUD

Freud, you are right. It was James Buckmaster and it happened in the warm up area on a motorcycle. I wasn't at the salt that year. Had just got married and was out of state.

[sockjohn]

My guess is development and testing would be far more costly that the DAQ itself.

You can count on engineering man months running the neighborhood of $10-15k easily.

Automotive environments are brutal, and basically this requires a self contained self powered unit that would have to be fairly compact.  Not a trivial task at all.

I have no objection of the data collection and would fully support it, but what is the data going to do to improve safety?  In the end the data will tell us that the driver was subjected to high g forces in various directions.  How will we use it to improve safety?