Author Topic: "The Course"  (Read 19110 times)

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Offline JackD

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2007, 03:17:56 AM »
Jack:
 
 Important words in your statement -- words that differed from the Bub's meet:
 
 "The key is...
 "...release the entries as they are ready..."
 "...release the short course vehicles first..."
 
 Etc, etc, etc
 
 "They (the starter) know..."
 "...good communications..."
 "An experienced starter is key..."
 
 My earlier post was strictly limited to the experience at Bub's, and it was their first time running an event.  I hope they read your post (as well as take to heart all of the advice they've received since that meet) and also use the experience they gained at the meet.  
 
 The way the event was run was NOT a good example (of how to run a single-course meet), but it WAS, we hope, a learning experience for them.

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Offline Stainless1

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2007, 09:13:30 AM »

 If you find yourself not ready towards the front of the line you can help accommodate the meet by waving someone past you.
 You earned the right to have exclusive use of the course when you are ready but no one should delay an event.

Wow, we have done this for years.  I'll bet most of the racers at Bonneville have pushed past our lakester at one time or another.
And we have pushed past others when they asked.  Most of the long time racers have this trait ingrained in their behavior, it would not be new, it is simple courtesy to your fellow racers.  :wink:
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

dwarner

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2007, 09:41:27 AM »
"You earned the right to have exclusive use of the course when you are ready but no one should delay an event."



Which brings up one of my pet peeves. 30 MPH records! Real simple math tells us that if a record is in the 30 mph range the total time to run the two miles is approximately 4 minutes. Times that by two, equals 8 minutes for the two passes. Plus how many runs prior to the two record passes. Then to top it off the entry runs three miles instead of the needed two miles because they paid for it.

How about this theory - if a race track runs roughly parallel to an Interstate highway there should be no records slower than the posted speed limit. And - how come a Whizzer is a motorcycle? Isn't it basically an engine on a bicycle?

DW

Offline RichFox

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2007, 10:05:33 AM »
I saw Rick putting down the course I think Wednesday. It was the last run on course two and I thought it was good that Rick waited to be the last pass so that no one was held up.

Offline Dynoroom

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2007, 12:06:52 PM »
"You earned the right to have exclusive use of the course when you are ready but no one should delay an event."



Which brings up one of my pet peeves. 30 MPH records! Real simple math tells us that if a record is in the 30 mph range the total time to run the two miles is approximately 4 minutes. Times that by two, equals 8 minutes for the two passes. Plus how many runs prior to the two record passes. Then to top it off the entry runs three miles instead of the needed two miles because they paid for it.

How about this theory - if a race track runs roughly parallel to an Interstate highway there should be no records slower than the posted speed limit. And - how come a Whizzer is a motorcycle? Isn't it basically an engine on a bicycle?

DW

I've wanted to say something like that for years! (Glad you did)
Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline JackD

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2007, 01:30:56 PM »
Perhaps a graduated entry fee.
The faster you go, the less you have to pay because you are more important.
How about a pay as you go.
Your entry fee will be determined by the average of the time taken for you from the release of the track from the previous entry to the time you clear it for the next person.
A real time and motion study would be quite revealing.
Ya, datottadooit. :roll:
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline desotoman

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2007, 01:47:32 PM »

Which brings up one of my pet peeves. 30 MPH records!

DW

With all due respect if you don't want 30 mph records maybe the SCTA should not have classes where that would be the norm. Any 50cc production vintage gas motorcycle would run in the 30-40 mph range. These classes have been in the books for some time now with open records. Now that someone finally steps up and pays their entry fee and sets a record at 30 plus mph they get criticised for taking too much of the association's precious time?  :? These people did not create the rule book nor the distance required to set a record. They come to Bonneville to compete in a class that the SCTA created, and now are being criticized for doing so.  :?

I always was under the impression that the minimums at Bonneville were dropped so the record books open classes could get filled. Besides if you look at the big picture it is not like there are 30 vehicles that are running 30mph. Time wise it all average's out. I thought Bonneville was supposed to be the experience no matter what type of vehicle you were running.  I don't know about other states but in California it used to be that you could not take a motorcycle on the freeway that was under 150cc's and the speed limit was 65 mph.

Bottom line everyone pays their money and are entitled to run what ever class they chose in the rule book.

Tom G.
I love the USA. How much longer will we be a free nation?

Asking questions is one's only way of getting answers.

The rational person lets verified facts form or modify his opinion.  The ideologue ignores verified facts which don't fit his preconceived opinions.

Offline Glen

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2007, 02:30:22 PM »
with close to 1900 MC classes it will take centuries to  fill the open records :evil: :?
Glen
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South West, Utah

Offline JackD

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2007, 02:51:53 PM »
The number of classes on both sides causes the remainder of the field to be divided in importance by that ammount.
The reason for the dropping of the minimums at Bonneville had to do withthe maintaince of those minimums as the speeds for the classes went up.
A C-GAS what ever minimum was slower that the E-GAS record for example.
The big problem it presented was the credibility of the minimum was suspect and the SCTA was fighting with the 2 Club.
Minimums were originally intended to limit record attempts for back to back runs to those that were most likely to exceed the record speed with performance.
The obvious solution if SCTA was unwilling to keep up the minimums was to abandon them and let the 2 Club do their own thing.
I made the motion.
The minimums at El mirage have a whole other purpose and the number of classes that serve only the interest of those that wish to sneak by the system is full of abuses that cheapen the effort.
It is less and less a reward for performance as it is sandbagging against minimums in a class you created for yourself without adiquate oversight. :wink:
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

dwarner

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2007, 11:05:03 AM »
Tom,

I'm surprised. It is not the SCTA's precious time it YOURS. The continuing complaining by the entrants on the wait in line and the responsibility of the organizers to speed up the meet is the subject of many posts.

I do understand your point about the 30 MPH records as you are an entrant of a motorcycle that tries to be the slowest record each year. What upsets me is the idea that maybe to achieve the "slowest record" goal the idea was passed around to leave the bike in first gear for the whole two miles.

We all know why the Bonneville minimums were dropped and who developed the many, many motorcycle classes to serve his own agenda. He has received a retirement plaque.

Dyno room, you're welcome.

DW

Offline JackD

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2007, 12:27:04 PM »
It is never too late to retreat, but it is harder everyday, and borders on admitting defeat.
There was a requirement that 3 running vehicles of a unique type had to be up and running before a class was open for competition.
It deteriorated to only requiring 3 entry fees that made it a money game.
Then it deteriorated even more, and only required political pressure.
If you want to cut down on the "Cherry Picking" that gets you a wall hanger record, require that each motor class within a vehicle type require 3 real running entries to open it for competition the first time so there is some semblance of competition. :wink:

"The race to the hole in the records listing is about as valuable as winking at a girl in the dark, and gets all the respect it deserves." (me)

"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline desotoman

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2007, 03:05:37 PM »
Tom,

I do understand your point about the 30 MPH records as you are an entrant of a motorcycle that tries to be the slowest record each year. What upsets me is the idea that maybe to achieve the "slowest record" goal the idea was passed around to leave the bike in first gear for the whole two miles.

DW

Dan,

Sorry this reply took so long as I have not been around a computer.

You have fallen for the BS (keep it in first gear) that is put out there to mess with people's minds. Propaganda is what I call it and it has obviously worked.

Yes I am 25% owner of the White Goose Bar 50cc Vintage motorcycle that competed at Bonneville this year and set a record. We also set 3 records with the same bike (different names) last year at Bonneville. We have always run the bike as fast as it will go. We understand the long lines and the wait everyone endures and always run just the minimum amount of runs to set a record. This year at Speedweek we waited until Thursday before we even ran the bike. This year we had to run the stock carb for the class in which it was entered and has a venturi so tiny I am surprised it went as fast as it did.

Background: At a Sidewinders meeting two years ago there was a big discussion on why the Sidewinders being one of the biggest car clubs in the SCTA were consistently finishing in the bottom half of the club standings at El Mirage. We were told by the Club President the reason most people don't run cars or bikes in the club is because of the cost of racing. Four of us were sitting at a table and had just got the new rule book. One of us looked up the slowest open minimum for a motorcycle at El Mirage and it was 37mph for a 50cc P-PV at El Mirage.  We all decided to go in as partners and find a bike that would be able to compete in this class. It took a while but we found a bike.  Long story short the guy gave us the bike if we would enter it in his company name and would run it at Bonneville 2006. We did and got the bike for free. Total cost of setting 3 records at Bonneville in 2006 was about $1000 mostly entry money and converting the bike to meet the current rules. 

We proved our point that it does not take a huge bank account to set records and that if someone really wants to do it they can. Everyone thought we were crazy so to mess with peoples minds we would tell them we were going after the World's Fastest-Slowest record. The word spread along with who knows how many rumors. Do I take these records seriously? No way. Do we have fun? Yes.

Bottom line, We looked in the rule book at the time and found a class we wanted to run. We set our goal. We accomplished our goal and are having fun. Sorry it takes so long to complete a run, but everything was done according to the rule book and the current classes listed in it. I feel we do not slow down the meet and are very considerate of the other participants. This year I though there would be a shorter coarse to run on but it did not materialize.

If there are people out there who do not like what we are doing I suggest you change the rules and retire our records. We are only guilty of reading the rule book and building a vehicle for a class that aready existed.


Tom G.
I love the USA. How much longer will we be a free nation?

Asking questions is one's only way of getting answers.

The rational person lets verified facts form or modify his opinion.  The ideologue ignores verified facts which don't fit his preconceived opinions.

Offline JackD

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2007, 04:16:18 PM »
Well, you can't argue with that.
I know an amateur car guy that took out a way way high dollar GM project for about $15k.
That is the "Hot Rodder" attitude that attempts to keep it as it began, and as it will survive into the future.
The proliferation of classes that everybody complains about and watches happen is still the largest divider of performance.
Real performance at what is considered by some to be slow, might just be really hard to beat.
Ask GM, Ford, Honda, Chrysler, and recently MV , with a number of others that all got beat by "Hot Rodders", even Curls.  :wink:






   
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline Dynoroom

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2007, 05:01:26 PM »
The proliferation of classes that everybody complains about and watches happen is still the largest divider of performance.
  

The real issue....
Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline JackD

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2007, 05:45:04 PM »
A COMMON THOUGHT:
"Ahh, let him go, he only stole a few dollars and we can just print some more." :roll:
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"