Author Topic: "The Course"  (Read 19113 times)

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Offline RichFox

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2004, 01:16:00 PM »
Richard- I don't think 5 miles is sacred. As I posted I have seen cars run that were backed up an it was fine with me. I am pointing out that it causes more effort from the BNI people to run a longer course and that effort has to come from somewhere. Few people need or would benifit from another mile or two, so I think a user fee would be fair.---PS. Most of the time lately I have been running on a 1.3 mile course

Offline Stan Back

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2004, 06:09:00 PM »
I agree with Scott.
 
 We run in a very competitive class -- and almost always have an increase in our out-the-door speed over our five-mile speed.  So we're led to believe that we could set a record by the time we get to Salt Lake City!
 
 We can't standardize the course condition or the weather from year to year (oe even day to day), so having a set distance (if possible) tends to level the playing field somewhat and give each entry a fairer chance.
 
 And the ideas of the added distance and having your own crew pull patrol on it seems simply not workable or safe.
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Offline Glen

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2004, 08:12:00 PM »
If some of these runs were on a -2 start in 1991 I was only there for Sat,sun and part of monday as I had to leave due to a family emergency. So I can't say if they did or not. Cagle was the Chief timer at that time and I was asst. timer and recorder. The run that Al Teague I refered to was after the meet was over and he wanted to see what it would do on a crappy course. He had tons of wheel spin on the run. I believe he ran 407 mph on the run.
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Offline Richard Thomason

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2004, 10:53:00 PM »
This is fun. One thing to think about when considering the extra time that "big numbers" cars require to do their thing. The average number of runs those cars make at a meet are around 5. This last year, we were at all 3 meets and only made 5 runs total, two of which were turn outs. The only point of this is that we paid the same amount as those that turned laps, and they were able to use the salt as the big "Dyno". My thoughts are that were are all in this together. Whether you make multiple runs or take more time for each run because of longer distances, or whatever, we all need to recognize that none of us can do this on our own. Back to course length, I feel that if the salt is there, let's use it. Unfortunately, conditions vary from year to year. Some years the salt is slick and slow, some years it is very hard and fast. Do we want to have separate records for differant times of the year? Trust me, when we can run in October, the salt is much faster. Most of us are in this for the long haul. That means many years. Things change from year to year. Salt changes, temparature changes, air density changes. Sometimes things are the luck of the draw. IF IT WERE EASY, EVERONE WOULD HAVE RECORDS. I guess what I am saying is that we should do  anything and everything possible to set the highest speeds that can be done, based on the cars and bikes capabilities. I'm sorry if someone losses their record because salt conditions change. Step up to the plate and defend your record. The course length has previously been defined by salt conditions. I think we should keep it that way. We are about setting the fastest records possible. I think we should give all racers the greatest possibilties depending on their own vehicles.
 rht

Offline Richard Thomason

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2004, 11:04:00 PM »
Scott Guthrie-why be consistent. This is not drag racing on a quarter mile. This is about all out land speed records. The track conditions will change from year to year, the air conditions will also change. Why worry about course length. That will and should change as the salt changes. My personal opinion is that "OUR SANTIONING BODY"

Offline Richard Thomason

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2004, 11:08:00 PM »
Sorry-hit the wrong key- to continue previous post I say- "OUR SANTIONING BODY" should do everything possible to provide the greatest opportunities to set the fastest records possible. Conditions change not only annualy, but also weekly. We can't control those things, but just give anyone who shows up the opportunity to go as fast as poissible.
 rht

Offline Richard Thomason

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2004, 11:21:00 PM »
Dallas-yes we remember the previous format of qualifing on one day, and then having to make two passes the next day. That was pretty tough. Those were the rules and we all abided by them. If you were a qualifier, it was great. If you had to sit around till noon to try and quailfy, maybe less than great. We have done both. I think that you are incorrect in your thoughts about previous long course data. When we backed up to the minus 2, we ran through the 4 mile, shut off, had five miles to stop, turn around and then ran back to the same 4 mile, giving us 6 miles each way. My point is that the total course was longer. Many records have been certified this way. I have no problem at all with this. This is land speed racing, not 5 mile drag racing. Let's use what is available.

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2004, 02:22:00 AM »
using the even playing field on course length and taking a record away is the same thing as saying I had a wet course and he had a good dry course, or he had good air and I had bad air.
 
 I'm with Richard, if there is salt then lets use it for maximum capability. I want to see the fast guys go fast and not be limited by course length. One car Im sure could benefit from a longer course is the Herbert/Steen car, amoung many others.
 
 I know conditions can change from day to day, hour to hour and Bub Meet shows that. Dennis had a 10 FULL MILE Course laid out and was run on during the BUB Motorcycle meet. Including a little extra both ways for extra shut down area.
 
 This was 3 days apart from the WOS meet
 
 Jonathan

Offline Stan Back

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2004, 01:23:00 PM »
Here we go!  At last a way to either get rid of so many records or create new ones -- 5.5 miles, 6.1 miles, etc.  Would almost be like the motorcycles.  Or we could just incorporate the El Mirage (and equally dumb idea of having separate Muroc records) into the Bonneville records.  The hell with course length or condition or composition.  Here's a real opportunity to streamline the Rule Book!
Past (Only) Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- 19 Years of Bonneville and/or El Mirage Street Roadster Records

TWOCLUB

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2004, 07:46:00 PM »
Why don't they run 5 miles for scta-bni records and back up to the -1 or -2 for bni international records. The way they run the lineup with the pre stage you could stop at anytime and run the cars from the minus what ever. It is a lot easier now that all runs are in the same direction. There is no need for additional personal on the top end because everyone would still shutoff by the 5 mile marker. More people would be needed in the minus miles but that is still the lower speed area.

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2004, 10:33:00 AM »
Ed:
 
 That's sorta like what they did at the Bub's event last September.  One physical course, with a short course start line two miles up from the long course start.  Most of the bikes ran the short course, but when there was someone waiting to use the long course they'd stop activity at the short start and run the long course vehicles.  (Unfortunately it didn't work especially efficiently, but the theory was there - maybe the bugs'll get worked out for next time.  Also, they had planned on two courses, but weather nixed one of 'em).
 
 Anyway, a big hassle was that the short staging area was a hundred yards or so away from the course itself, and either the bikes would start engines and drive up to the course, making a left turn onto the course as they got to it -- or bikes would be staged right near the course, and when there was someone ready to use the long course, all short course stuff would have to be pulled back away to make sure the long course vehicle would have room in case an untoward incident occured and the long course vehicle went off-course.
 
 In theory, workable; in practice, not perfect.  How close to the course do you want to be (at the two, for instance, where the short staging area might be) when a long course vehicle gets sideways and heads towards you at the speed already accumulated by that point?  Me?  Unh, I'll stay back a few extra feet. . .
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Offline Bob Drury

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2004, 12:29:00 PM »
I hate to admit it, but this year I spun out less than a quarter mile off the line with a 4500# car.  I had absolutly no control once it started to go, so I dread the thought of other competitors being close to the course if you move the starting line back.     "360 Bob"
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Offline JackD

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2004, 03:45:00 AM »
The procedure to allow the various approaches to a single course if that was all that was available has been done successfully in the past and included runs in both directions with no delays.
The key is that only one starter will release the entries as they are ready.
That gives the appropriate get ready time and prevents multiple runs in the same or different directions.
 For example, if you have three starting areas running from the highway towards the mountain the single starter will release the short course vehicles first.
One of the things to do as soon as the short course vehicles begin to be released is to close off the staging lanes at the rear to limit any further entries in that lineup.
 From the number of entries and the pace you can quickly estimate  the time it would take and the available entries on the longer course  will have suitable notice.
The short course vehicles will run and those that wish to make a return run will proceed directly to the equivalent starting area in the other direction, well off the course.
This will reduce the "Joy ride" problem that slows things up.
 If you are in the pits when your segment is running and you wish to make the next available run you will take your vehicle to the appropriate staging area and assemble with those that have just completed runs and are waiting for returns.
Get in line, your competitore will help you with that.
 When you have finished all the return runs on the course the starter moves to the next longer starting area. They know the estimated time that was given to them based on the pace and number of entries from the other area plus a couple of minutes for the starter to move. You repeat this method for each length of the course and the last one to run is the longest, and presumably FIA or FIM entries that have a time limit turn around.
 When all of the vehicles have traveled down course and arrived at their respective staging areas you can begin the process for their return.
FIA with one hour and FIM with two hours can be run at any time because the staging areas are well clear of the course.
You would begin to run the short course vehicles going towards the highway first but you must be mindful of the return run schedule for the FIA/FIM entries.
You must fill the time available with running entries and additionally be able to clear the course for those with the turn around time frame. You must make the meet as efficient as possible and good communications will allow that with a good margin for safety.
 Using this method for US National records will also spread the record holders into the certification impound area throughout the day and not jam them up after one records only session.
This will direct business to the impound area all day long and make most efficient use of the time.
 An experienced starter is key to the pace, course availabilty and weather conditions that each entry is subject to and would have the final judgement before the entries are released to run.
It is impairative that he officials and the entrants be ready with no delays because you owe it to each other. :wink:
« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 08:55:51 AM by JackD »
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Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2004, 09:54:00 AM »
Jack:
 
 Important words in your statement -- words that differed from the Bub's meet:
 
 "The key is...
 "...release the entries as they are ready..."
 "...release the short course vehicles first..."
 
 Etc, etc, etc
 
 "They (the starter) know..."
 "...good communications..."
 "An experienced starter is key..."
 
 My earlier post was strictly limited to the experience at Bub's, and it was their first time running an event.  I hope they read your post (as well as take to heart all of the advice they've received since that meet) and also use the experience they gained at the meet.  
 
 The way the event was run was NOT a good example (of how to run a single-course meet), but it WAS, we hope, a learning experience for them.
Jon E. Wennerberg
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Offline JackD

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Re: "The Course"
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2004, 12:54:00 PM »
As important as it is for the organizers to develop a smooth meet it is equally important for the entrants to make it as easy as possible by knowing what to expect and be ready on time.
If a starter waits an extra 5 minutes for the entry at the head of the line to get his act together every body on the salt is waiting also.
 It's kind of like dead air on the radio.
 If you reach the head of the line and your not ready the starter should go around you to keep things moving.
 I guarantee if it happens to you you will quickly learn to avoid the problem because nothing is more precious than a run on the salt.
 Lack of communication works in both directions.
 Not only from official to official but entrant to entrant.
 If you find yourself not ready towards the front of the line you can help accommadate the meet by waving someone past you.
 You earned the right to have exclusive use of the course when you are ready but no one should delay an event.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 09:03:16 AM by JackD »
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"