Author Topic: Rocket dragsters were the fastest cars in the world at the time - ANYWHERE  (Read 8747 times)

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Offline Ratliff

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After the Herda, Knapp and Milodon B/Streamliner ran  326 mph at the Bonneville Nationals in 1967, nobody clocked 300 mph at Speedweek again until 1975 when Bob Noice ran 317 mph in Les Leggitt's lakester, becoming the first driver anywhere to run over 300 mph in a piston engine open wheel car.
 
Prior to that, on March 18, 1973, Dave Anderson had become the driver to exceed 300 mph at an NHRA National event when he ran over 300 mph at the Gatornationals. So throughout the seventies, when spectators were watching rocket dragsters go 330 mph to 340+ mph, they weren't simply watching the fastest cars at dragstrips. They were watching the fastest cars then running in the world.
 

Offline aircap

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Re: Rocket dragsters were the fastest cars in the world at the time - ANYWHERE
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2008, 03:36:33 AM »
So build one, Rat.  Oh, wait, you'd have to leave your keyboard.

Offline lvsalt

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Re: Rocket dragsters were the fastest cars in the world at the time - ANYWHERE
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2008, 11:17:11 AM »
B & N automotive streamliner 335mph    August 1969 Bonneville salt flats. (FACT)
If your going to make statements at least do your research.
Gary Cole     DCWATERJET Z

Offline Ratliff

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Re: Rocket dragsters were the fastest cars in the world at the time - ANYWHERE
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2008, 11:21:42 AM »
B & N automotive streamliner 335mph    August 1969 Bonneville salt flats. (FACT)
If your going to make statements at least do your research.

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,4548.0.html

Easy mistake to make when, as of 1973, the last 300 mph SCTA record had been set in 1967. But, now that I think about it, didn't Noel Black clock 352 mph with the Motion 1 liner in either 1971 or 1972?

"So throughout the seventies, when spectators were watching rocket dragsters go 330 mph to 340+ mph, they weren't simply watching the fastest cars at dragstrips. They were watching the fastest cars then running in the world."

Dave Anderson clocked 344 mph with the first Pollution Packer rocket dragster at the 1973 Indy Nationals.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 11:29:20 AM by Ratliff »

Offline lvsalt

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Re: Rocket dragsters were the fastest cars in the world at the time - ANYWHERE
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2008, 11:34:47 AM »
1970
Gary Cole     DCWATERJET Z

Offline Tzoom

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Re: Rocket dragsters were the fastest cars in the world at the time - ANYWHERE
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2008, 11:40:02 AM »
Prior to that, on March 18, 1973, Dave Anderson had become the driver to exceed 300 mph at an NHRA National event when he ran over 300 mph at the Gatornationals. So throughout the seventies, when spectators were watching rocket dragsters go 330 mph to 340+ mph, they weren't simply watching the fastest cars at dragstrips. They were watching the fastest cars then running in the world.

These cars were, and still are, exhibition vehicles used as fillers to keep the crowd entertained during lulls in the action or are hired by local dragstrips as a draw to increase the Saturday night crowd.  It doesn't matter how fast or slow they go.  They are a joke, just like the Little Red Wagon that covered the quarter mile on its back wheels or a Fiat Topolino that regurgitates a dozen clowns.  If these vehicles were meant to be taken seriously there would be a class for them and they would be seen in competition every weekend.  But they aren't.    

The biggest draw to land speed racing, at least for me, is to see what man can do with the technology available to him at the time.  As much as I appreciate record runs I also appreciate people being able to meet and exceed their personal challenges.  I would love to be able to build a car to go over 200 mph.  The 200 mph barrier has been broken many many times but not by me.  Whether I were to build it and drive it or just build it my goal would have been met.  Then I would set another goal.  

At another level, I am drawn to racing for the technology as if affects my daily life.  Tire and motor oils   technologies are the first that come to mind but Corsa Racing is going to race a hybrid in ALMS starting at the Petit Lemans this year.  How is that going to work?  I'm anxious to find out because as much as I love the internal combustion engine hybrid technology is elbowing its way in.  Diesel and Propane fueled vehicles are destined to be a part of our future to some degree or another too and I appreciate the efforts being put into that research as well.    

The jet engine has pretty much done all it can do in land speed racing.  Another mile per hour gained on a record run is nice to read about in the paper on Monday morning but it does nothing to effect my daily life.  I can't see where any of us gain by land speed attempts made by these P.T. Barnums of the salt whether their vehicle is propelled by a jet engine or by an aircraft propeller.  They are cartoon vehicles.  
Propellers belong on planes, boats and on the beanies of a few idiots and are being built by and driven by people for purely selfish reasons.  

On the other hand the guys who have worked themselves up by setting personal goals, met and exceeded them and have gone on to the next level using technology we can relate to have my attention.  If I were to realize my 200 mph dream I might be motivated to set higher goals and maybe even go on to try for a record.  If during my quest I were to make a technological break through it would be a win win.  Setting and reaching for goals that are realistic and relevant is not being selfish.  Every time a record is set the car builder had to do something to make that record possible and that something will eventually trickle down to everyone else and that will make the sport stronger and better.                

Will Corsa's hybrid-powered P1 prototype be able to tun with the Audis and Acuras?  I don't know but I do know their attempts will influence the hybrid technology we will be using in our daily drivers in the not too distant future.  I don't foresee jet engine or propeller driven minivans taking mom to the grocery store or dropping the kids off at soccer practice.  

So for fear of being put into the category of Ratliff, and maybe I have already, I'll stop with my $.02 treatise on jet engines, propellers and clown cars.          Steve
Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games --- Ernest Hemingway

Offline Ratliff

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Re: Rocket dragsters were the fastest cars in the world at the time - ANYWHERE
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2008, 11:53:57 AM »
Prior to that, on March 18, 1973, Dave Anderson had become the driver to exceed 300 mph at an NHRA National event when he ran over 300 mph at the Gatornationals. So throughout the seventies, when spectators were watching rocket dragsters go 330 mph to 340+ mph, they weren't simply watching the fastest cars at dragstrips. They were watching the fastest cars then running in the world.

These cars were, and still are, exhibition vehicles used as fillers to keep the crowd entertained during lulls in the action or are hired by local dragstrips as a draw to increase the Saturday night crowd.  It doesn't matter how fast or slow they go.  They are a joke, just like the Little Red Wagon that covered the quarter mile on its back wheels or a Fiat Topolino that regurgitates a dozen clowns.  If these vehicles were meant to be taken seriously there would be a class for them and they would be seen in competition every weekend.  But they aren't.    

The biggest draw to land speed racing, at least for me, is to see what man can do with the technology available to him at the time.  As much as I appreciate record runs I also appreciate people being able to meet and exceed their personal challenges.  I would love to be able to build a car to go over 200 mph.  The 200 mph barrier has been broken many many times but not by me.  Whether I were to build it and drive it or just build it my goal would have been met.  Then I would set another goal.  

At another level, I am drawn to racing for the technology as if affects my daily life.  Tire and motor oils   technologies are the first that come to mind but Corsa Racing is going to race a hybrid in ALMS starting at the Petit Lemans this year.  How is that going to work?  I'm anxious to find out because as much as I love the internal combustion engine hybrid technology is elbowing its way in.  Diesel and Propane fueled vehicles are destined to be a part of our future to some degree or another too and I appreciate the efforts being put into that research as well.    

The jet engine has pretty much done all it can do in land speed racing.  Another mile per hour gained on a record run is nice to read about in the paper on Monday morning but it does nothing to effect my daily life.  I can't see where any of us gain by land speed attempts made by these P.T. Barnums of the salt whether their vehicle is propelled by a jet engine or by an aircraft propeller.  They are cartoon vehicles.  
Propellers belong on planes, boats and on the beanies of a few idiots and are being built by and driven by people for purely selfish reasons.  

On the other hand the guys who have worked themselves up by setting personal goals, met and exceeded them and have gone on to the next level using technology we can relate to have my attention.  If I were to realize my 200 mph dream I might be motivated to set higher goals and maybe even go on to try for a record.  If during my quest I were to make a technological break through it would be a win win.  Setting and reaching for goals that are realistic and relevant is not being selfish.  Every time a record is set the car builder had to do something to make that record possible and that something will eventually trickle down to everyone else and that will make the sport stronger and better.                

Will Corsa's hybrid-powered P1 prototype be able to tun with the Audis and Acuras?  I don't know but I do know their attempts will influence the hybrid technology we will be using in our daily drivers in the not too distant future.  I don't foresee jet engine or propeller driven minivans taking mom to the grocery store or dropping the kids off at soccer practice.  

So for fear of being put into the category of Ratliff, and maybe I have already, I'll stop with my $.02 treatise on jet engines, propellers and clown cars.          Steve

www.laffin-gas.com

Apart from Dennis Manning, is there a single racer in land speed racing who is running a vehicle with a motor they designed and built themselves and developed from scratch?

When NHRA sucked up to Detroit back in the sixties they banned aircraft engines for the same reason they banned jets. They couldn't have a Detroit product being embarassed by a little guy independent racer with something they'd built in a garage.

After the sevens and about 180 mph, either a jet or rocket got to every major performance milestone in drag racing first.

As you may know, billionaire T. Boone Pickens has begun a campaign to wean America off foreign oil with a combination of wind farms and natural gas. Gary Gabelich, the last American to date to hold the LSR, did so driving a rocket car, The Blue Flame, that ran on natural gas. Setting the LSR on natural gas today would be even more relevant to the real world than it was 38 years ago.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 12:08:22 PM by Ratliff »

Offline Tzoom

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Re: Rocket dragsters were the fastest cars in the world at the time - ANYWHERE
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2008, 12:56:57 PM »
When NHRA sucked up to Detroit back in the sixties they banned aircraft engines for the same reason they banned jets. They couldn't have a Detroit product being embarassed by a little guy independent racer with something they'd built in a garage.

I understand what you are saying there but by saying it you are disrespecting all of the "little guy independent racers" who had 327 and 409 Chevys and 390 and 406 Ford and 413 Chryslers in their sedans. coupes and rails.  The aircraft engines would have gradually gone by the wayside anyway through attrition.

Quote
After the sevens and about 180 mph, either a jet or rocket got to every major performance milestone in drag racing first.

Who cares.  A J Foyt won the Indy 500 four times but that became totally irrelevant when Rick Mears accomplished the same task.   

Quote
As you may know, billionaire T. Boone Pickens has begun a campaign to wean America off foreign oil with a combination of wind farms and natural gas. Gary Gabelich, the last American to date to hold the LSR, did so driving a rocket car, The Blue Flame, that ran on natural gas. Setting the LSR on natural gas today would be even more relevant to the real world than it was 38 years ago.

Thanks for that bit of gee whiz information.  I alluded to propane in my last post as it is a possible fuel of the future whose benefits are being exploited right now.  Although it has a higher carbon content than natural gas and burns hotter it is easier to use.  When they have perfected a system of fuel delivery and storage for natural gas for cars then that may be the way to go.  I applaud Pickens for his stand on energy but I think it is better to use the fuels we have in abundance in their most obvious applications. I just saw his commercial and I agree with him but things have to be done in a logical sequence.  Natural gas should be used first to heat homes instead of inefficient electricity and fuel oils and wind power and nuclear energy should be exploited to provide electricity.  I live in the prairie lands of north central Iowa surrounded by corn fields (and ethanol plants), soy bean fields (a source of bio diesel) and wind farms.  I see the beginnings of alternate energy every day and I encourage its use.  The use of alternative energy sources to land speed racing should be exploited.  Audi and Peugeot have made great strides in improving diesel technology.  Corsa is going to attempt to make similar strides in hybrid technology.  Efforts by all of these companies will lead to better ways for all of us to get through our day.  Land speed racing, and racing in general, will serve as a testbed to refine these technologies.  Unless you plan on putting a TV and microwave in your lakester/streamliner for entertainment as you trundle on down the salt a propeller has no place in land speed racing.  It is totally irrelevant to what is going on in the real world.   
Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games --- Ernest Hemingway

Offline jdincau

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Re: Rocket dragsters were the fastest cars in the world at the time - ANYWHERE
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2008, 01:09:54 PM »
Apart from Dennis Manning, is there a single racer in land speed racing who is running a vehicle with a motor they designed and built themselves and developed from scratch?


Nick Arias Jr, ran an A and AA gas lakester that put his son into both the Bonneville and El Mirage two clubs. The engine was an Arias 10 liter that Nick designed and built himself from scratch.
Unless it's crazy, ambitious and delusional, it's not worth our time!

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Re: Rocket dragsters were the fastest cars in the world at the time - ANYWHERE
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2008, 01:48:54 PM »
...

As you may know, billionaire T. Boone Pickens has begun a campaign to wean America off foreign oil with a combination of wind farms and natural gas. Gary Gabelich, the last American to date to hold the LSR, did so driving a rocket car, The Blue Flame, that ran on natural gas. Setting the LSR on natural gas today would be even more relevant to the real world than it was 38 years ago.

You can run piston engines off CNG, it's been around a long time, and is in widespread yet limited use.  Storage and energy yield keep it from displacing petroleum in cars.  Many big generators run it.

I agree it would be cool to see the absolute wheel-driven LSR set using an alternative fuel, but as fast as you could go with the CNG or other alternative fuel, you could just switch the engine over to nitromethane, methanol, gasoline, or diesel and go faster.  As a race fuel, it would need a handicap to be competitive.

Offline Tzoom

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Re: Rocket dragsters were the fastest cars in the world at the time - ANYWHERE
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2008, 02:06:40 PM »
A new category within each class would have to be created to accommodate alternative fuels and put them on an equal footing.  I've only just started getting interested in LSR so I don't know how proactive the sanctioning bodies are in moving toward new technologies.  I imagine someday it will happen.  If it happens in my lifetime that's okay.  If it doesn't that's okay too.  I'm into things that go fast on the ground, without propellers. 
Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games --- Ernest Hemingway

McRat

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Re: Rocket dragsters were the fastest cars in the world at the time - ANYWHERE
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2008, 03:19:38 PM »

The trick thing to do with Natural Gas today is to turn it into "synthetic diesel".  This is gaining momentum.  I bought a barrel of it, and need to do some testing with it.

No sulfur, less smoke, higher cetane, and could be competitive with petro diesel if given a chance.  I bought it at $4.50 a gallon.

Given a chance, you could set some LSR records with it.  But currently you are restricted to pump diesel.

It would not have to be given a handicap, and might even have higher energy density than any other hydrocarbon fuel.  As far as I know, pump diesel has the #1 energy density, 20% higher than gasoline.  Synthetic is supposed to gain 4% (I don't automatically believe mfr claims), and biodiesel takes a 4% hit, measured.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 03:28:35 PM by McRat »

Offline Ratliff

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Re: Rocket dragsters were the fastest cars in the world at the time - ANYWHERE
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2008, 08:07:06 PM »
When NHRA sucked up to Detroit back in the sixties they banned aircraft engines for the same reason they banned jets. They couldn't have a Detroit product being embarassed by a little guy independent racer with something they'd built in a garage.

I understand what you are saying there but by saying it you are disrespecting all of the "little guy independent racers" who had 327 and 409 Chevys and 390 and 406 Ford and 413 Chryslers in their sedans. coupes and rails.  The aircraft engines would have gradually gone by the wayside anyway through attrition.

Quote
After the sevens and about 180 mph, either a jet or rocket got to every major performance milestone in drag racing first.

Who cares.  A J Foyt won the Indy 500 four times but that became totally irrelevant when Rick Mears accomplished the same task.   

Quote
As you may know, billionaire T. Boone Pickens has begun a campaign to wean America off foreign oil with a combination of wind farms and natural gas. Gary Gabelich, the last American to date to hold the LSR, did so driving a rocket car, The Blue Flame, that ran on natural gas. Setting the LSR on natural gas today would be even more relevant to the real world than it was 38 years ago.

Thanks for that bit of gee whiz information.  I alluded to propane in my last post as it is a possible fuel of the future whose benefits are being exploited right now.  Although it has a higher carbon content than natural gas and burns hotter it is easier to use.  When they have perfected a system of fuel delivery and storage for natural gas for cars then that may be the way to go.  I applaud Pickens for his stand on energy but I think it is better to use the fuels we have in abundance in their most obvious applications. I just saw his commercial and I agree with him but things have to be done in a logical sequence.  Natural gas should be used first to heat homes instead of inefficient electricity and fuel oils and wind power and nuclear energy should be exploited to provide electricity.  I live in the prairie lands of north central Iowa surrounded by corn fields (and ethanol plants), soy bean fields (a source of bio diesel) and wind farms.  I see the beginnings of alternate energy every day and I encourage its use.  The use of alternative energy sources to land speed racing should be exploited.  Audi and Peugeot have made great strides in improving diesel technology.  Corsa is going to attempt to make similar strides in hybrid technology.  Efforts by all of these companies will lead to better ways for all of us to get through our day.  Land speed racing, and racing in general, will serve as a testbed to refine these technologies.  Unless you plan on putting a TV and microwave in your lakester/streamliner for entertainment as you trundle on down the salt a propeller has no place in land speed racing.  It is totally irrelevant to what is going on in the real world.   

Yeah, as if a fuel roadster is relevant to the real world.

Offline Tzoom

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Re: Rocket dragsters were the fastest cars in the world at the time - ANYWHERE
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2008, 08:25:34 PM »
If that fuel is ethanol it is.
Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games --- Ernest Hemingway