Author Topic: Engine/Tranny Question  (Read 18045 times)

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Offline panic

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Re: Engine/Tranny Question
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2008, 10:03:41 AM »
"The general rule of thumb on picking ratios is that each step should be about 1/2 of the previous step. Look at Doug's ratios, the difference is .55 first to second, .25 second to third, .17 third to forth and .1 forth to fifth. Very good selection, it mostly has to do with aero drag being a square function"

Way, way more complicated than that.

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Engine/Tranny Question
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2008, 12:14:44 PM »
I approach the problem similar to Hans---except I use the DYNO TQ #s X FDR-final drive ratio X TR--Trans ratio X RA- rear axel ratio X TC -tire correction--= TE Tractive effort---

go for the biggest number you can put down at the speed you are trying to run

PS dont forget: TQ, TR, RA and TC   and,  AND RPM are all almost equal factors
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

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Offline SPARKY

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Re: Engine/Tranny Question
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2008, 12:18:48 PM »
Sorry for being so verbose---if you can't pull the speed: then you have to decrease aero drag or parasitic losses or add more TE
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline Dave Haller

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Re: Engine/Tranny Question
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2008, 12:54:10 PM »
Sparky and others,
Engine is going on the dyno in about two weeks or so. Aero is being addressed today, the 14th, by some folks up this way that can help. Should have a much better idea how to make it go faster after all this great direction from all of you hot rodders. Sparky, are you going to the World Finals if the weather holds? I will probably come down to help a friend with his bike and talk with some of you about options on my ride and take lots of pictures for more ideas.
Dave Haller

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Engine/Tranny Question
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2008, 03:11:33 PM »
I am going to WOS---doubt if WF---I am taking JD's advice---go sOOn
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Engine/Tranny Question
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2008, 03:31:04 PM »
CORRECTION:

FDR=  TR x RA

Overall Ratio = FDR x TC

TE=TQ x OR   

Sorry for the confusion
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline aagl5100

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Re: Engine/Tranny Question
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2008, 05:22:07 PM »
I ran into an aero wall at my torque peak at the 4 mile mark will need to do some work to catch you fast guys

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Engine/Tranny Question
« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2008, 12:24:22 AM »
these formulas lets one play with appricots and apples---remember there is more than one way to skin a cat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline doug odom

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Re: Engine/Tranny Question
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2008, 11:59:58 AM »
Dave, Many years ago I did some testing on the dyno before they had the computerized ones they have now. My findings then was the engine accelerated the quickest between the torque peak and the horsepower peak. Now this was done with a stop watch and a constant load on the dyno that would let the engine run about 500 rpm over its peak horsepower. I have always tired to gear my engines to run in this area on oval and road race tracks. In LSR racing because of the high aero forces that increase at the square of the speed increase we don't have a constant load so that approach might not work so good.
Anyone please, jump in here and give me a better way if you have found one.
Doug Odom in big ditch

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If you can't race it or take it to bed - it ain't worth having.

Offline panic

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Re: Engine/Tranny Question
« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2008, 12:53:26 PM »
As Mr. Schimmer cleverly points out later, this post contained "Lots of buzz words not much sense", so I've removed it as a courtesy to small children who may be injured by reading it.

If you must, he has also carefully over-written my control of my own thoughts by re-printing something that he insists is worthless - to what purpose, I'll let the readers decide.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 12:20:09 AM by panic »

Offline Sumner

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Re: Engine/Tranny Question
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2008, 04:20:50 PM »
...........Unless a large number of gears can be used, this means compromising the 1st gear (reducing the number; e.g., 2.00 instead of 2.50:1) to close up the intermediate ratios since the engine is only pulling weight (not as much aero) in 1st gear and can afford less torque multiplication..............

I agree, if you have any HP the high first won't hurt you on the salt with the limited traction.  We run a 1.90 first and still over-power the tires with anything over about 50% throttle now and that is with a 5000 lb. car weight with about 1/2 of that on the rear.  Even the 1.33 second can produce wheel spin and requires less than 100% throttle.  Since we haven't reached the point of achieving traction with 100% throttle in 1st and 2nd I don't believe that the increased weight in the car has hurt acceleration and has probably helped it.

c ya,

Sum

Offline Dave Haller

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Re: Engine/Tranny Question
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2008, 11:59:45 AM »
Ran the engine on the dyno yesterday with surprising results. It was way fat on the pill I ran at speedweek. Found a clogged jet, two aimed wrong, fixed all that, had an ignition problem, fixed that and made several pulls. Torque is consistant between 4000 rpm and 7000 rpm dropping slightly between 7000 and 7500. Really like that. Rings started going away and stopped the dyno. Will freshen it up and take it back to get the fuel curve right. Great time, very happy with the numbers. Plan on enclosing the rest of the body this winter, get the tune right and be back in August, hopefully to go really fast.

Offline fredvance

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Re: Engine/Tranny Question
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2008, 12:20:18 PM »
So whats the bottom line Dave, how many ponies?
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Offline Dave Haller

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Re: Engine/Tranny Question
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2008, 07:05:30 PM »
Well, the best hp run was fat and still cold with 604 torque and 760 horse. Got much more coming with fresh rings, re-jetting, relief valve setting and heat in the engine.

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Engine/Tranny Question
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2008, 11:28:41 PM »
Panic said:

"the engine accelerated the quickest between the torque peak and the horsepower peak"

AFAIK thats a safe assumption with few exceptions.
However, what remains is "what percentage of the RPM range does this span?", which is (under ideal circumstances) the range to which engine speed should recover on every gear change.
As the maximum speed goes up, the necessity for compliance on the final shift into high gear becomes critical, and with speeds over 200 (?) even the penultimate gears become highly important since the car is accelerating against a huge aero load and falling below the power curve pretty much writes off the run (unless the chassis is traction rather than power limited).
Unless a large number of gears can be used, this means compromising the 1st gear (reducing the number; e.g., 2.00 instead of 2.50:1) to close up the intermediate ratios since the engine is only pulling weight (not as much aero) in 1st gear and can afford less torque multiplication.
A bike engine might have 12 or 14,000 RPM to play with, but only serious power in the last 20% or less; a diesel or high pressure turbo typically has a much wider power range.

In summary: all transmissions have some degree of progression towards the final ratio. The slope of the change in RPM drop is greatly affected by top speed, and the same drop between successive ratios that works well for 200 Mph may abort a 250 Mph run when the engine falls off the planet on the 3-4 shift.

The only nice thing about planning LSR ratios is that (in general) the progression can be a clean slope with no spikes or glitches as would be common in gear sets planned for road race courses to accommodate specific shift points and track lengths."

Lots of buzz words not much sense.

Rex





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