Propster is illegal, Why?

[Ratliff]

Actually, Franklin, I probably do have a better cpmprehension of all that then you will ever know, but that is not the point. You DID build the propster. It DID cost you something to build, didn't it? Why didn't you build what you should have the first time that would have, in essence, proved all your theories correct? Instead you built a car that not only is not safe according to the published minimums for tubing size, you built a car with such a low projected top speed that it makes your cause look all the more foolish. It makes no sense.

What makes no sense is talking to people who have no comprehension of the meaning of propeller pitch, the influence of a fixed pitch propeller on engine rpm, or the fact there is no useful quantitative data whatsoever available on the influence of a wake from a forward body on the aerodynamics of a pusher propeller.

What makes no sense is talking to people who have no knowledge of any kind of the fact drag racing airboats are restricted to 400 feet because the performance of drag racing airboats is limited by their hull aerodynamics not their propellers.

What makes no sense is talking to people who have no knowledge of any kind of the fact drag racing airboats have gone as fast as 130 mph in less than five seconds.

[Peter Jack]

Then go build yourself a truckstop boat and quit bothering us!

[Ratliff]

Then go build yourself a truckstop boat and quit bothering us!

Don't have a clue what "a truckstop boat" means.

[AJR192]

Once again, issue skirting diatribe from the Rocket dragster, airboat, olympics, airplane, hydroplane, drag racing, motorcycle parachute wanting, non essential information giving, unwanted, bandwidth wasting king of the internet. You are not even good entertainment anymore Franklin. Sure wish your banishment had been permanent.....

[Stan Back]

Just taking a break from the US Nationals.

Wow!  A wheel-driven car went 300 MPH in less than 4 seconds!  Good thing there wasn't a propster boat in front of it.

Flash!  NASCAR has also banned thrust-driven vehicles.  They're adamantly insisting that the participants follow their rule book.

[Ratliff]

Just taking a break from the US Nationals.

Wow!  A wheel-driven car went 300 MPH in less than 4 seconds!  Good thing there wasn't a propster boat in front of it.

Flash!  NASCAR has also banned thrust-driven vehicles.  They're adamantly insisting that the participants follow their rule book.

The first Pollution Packer, driven by Dave Anderson.

344 mph at the 1973 US Nationals with one third the weight of a present day Top Fuel dragster. Still the fastest car ever to run at the US Nationals, or any NHRA Nationals.

The attached photo was taken at Gainesville, March 18, 1973, the day Dave Anderson became the first driver to run 300 mph at an NHRA Nationals.

[Blue]

Even figuring conservatively, three pounds of thrust per horsepower with current propeller technology is a fact of physics the way gravity is a fact of physics. To debate that point is a waste of time. With just five hundred horsepower, you'd be looking at 1,500 lbs of thrust.

Pardon me?

T = 550 np (HP)/V

Prop thrust is inversely proportional to velocity.  Rat is quoting "Static" thrust. 

Do the math Rat.  Your 500 HP car would only have ~795 lb of thrust at 200 mph and 530 lb at 300.  This of course assumes a variable pitch prop that maintains a .85 np over 200 to 300 mph TAS, which the "ground adjustable" prop you have pictured could never do.

As to "the influence of a wake from a forward body on the aerodynamics of a pusher propeller" I have published on it and you haven't.  You don't know spit about the effects, so stop pretending that you do.

[sheribuchta]

eric   speaking of propsters--if i were going to build a wind tunnel with a test section 5 ft x 5 ft  how big of a motor and propeller would i need to do some serious testing for sheri and my projects --and if anyone out there has a motor and propeller that i can use please contact me at 209--6816876   thanks willie


time to quit argueing and get back to work --sheri and i both blew up our engines at bonneville we have to be at el mirage on the 13th of sept.for a race and i have a lot of work to do--sheri is  in 30th  position in points so i have to get her bike fixed i think she can finish in the top 25 this year-- me im too far back to finish as good as i did last year --i would post some pics of our engines but my camera blew up too-( not my month ) ive bought 3 in the last 2 years  any back to work    willie buchta

[Dynoroom]

What makes no sense is talking to people who have no comprehension of the meaning of propeller pitch, the influence of a fixed pitch propeller on engine rpm, or the fact there is no useful quantitative data whatsoever available on the influence of a wake from a forward body on the aerodynamics of a pusher propeller.

Yep, no one here knows anything about pusher props, or variable pitch props, or wake influence...... only you...... 

[427MG]

Just to add my twopenny worth as a rookie who only licenced for the first time last year.

Why the concerns about the fastest accelerating vehicle at Bonneville? I was always under the impression that ultimate top speeds were the goals rather than ultimate acceleration. I drag race in the UK for my acceleration thrills, perhaps a drag strip would be a good way to test the acceleration capablities of the Propster.

Speaking as someone who has just found that their car is not eligible to do class runs at Bonneville, I don't understand the stance taken by Franklin. Surely the thing to do is to talk to all involved in the governing body, of which there HAS to be one for any events of this status, and try and find a solution that suits everybodys needs instead of giving them a hard time over their decision. There has to be rules and regs, it would be impossible to run without them, and the trick is to abide by those rules. If you don't want to then don't come out to play.

In my case it was a simple case of converting my car from 4 door to 2 door that put it outside of any recognised classes. I won't be changing the shell again to fit in as I am self financing and self building and will not risk my home financially to build a car so for me I can't play. The upshot is that a friend of mine, who is also my crew chief when I'm drag racing, wants to build a drop tank racer and we will build it....with the rule book firmly in hand.

I wouldn't call Richard Noble or Andy Green second rate citizens just because they drove a thrust driven car (Thrust SSC) and I'm damn sure nobody on here is saying that anyone with a thrust driven vehicle is second rate, it's just that there is no category for non wheel driven vehicles.

Instead of complaining I would say that you have a golden opportunity here to set up an equivalent group (independently) that purely deals with thrust driven vehicles, wheel driven not allowed, and runs it's own seperate events. Given time and effort it could grow in popularity as man's quest for new and novel ways to go faster is a given.

Sorry for the newbie ramblings, it's just the way I see it from a newcomers point of view.

[Malcolm UK]

What continues to baffle me is the persistence of FR in challenging the SCTA through this medium to change a long held stance on non wheel driven cars (or bikes) and yet he projects a total lack of similar desire / drive / persistence to run his vehicle now it is built.  Does it run?  Do you talk to the President of the SCTA Franklin about their organisation?

Malcolm UK

[RichFox]

Once again. Your car may very well be accepted as an Altered sedan. Contact the people who actually can give you an answer. Franklin was offered the chance to run his car at Bonneville and Maxton. His excuse for not running it was that he has been so unsuccessful in his life that he can not afford to travel to Utah. I believe that.

[Ratliff]

Even figuring conservatively, three pounds of thrust per horsepower with current propeller technology is a fact of physics the way gravity is a fact of physics. To debate that point is a waste of time. With just five hundred horsepower, you'd be looking at 1,500 lbs of thrust.

Pardon me?

T = 550 np (HP)/V

Prop thrust is inversely proportional to velocity.  Rat is quoting "Static" thrust. 

Do the math Rat.  Your 500 HP car would only have ~795 lb of thrust at 200 mph and 530 lb at 300.  This of course assumes a variable pitch prop that maintains a .85 np over 200 to 300 mph TAS, which the "ground adjustable" prop you have pictured could never do.

As to "the influence of a wake from a forward body on the aerodynamics of a pusher propeller" I have published on it and you haven't.  You don't know spit about the effects, so stop pretending that you do.

The first airplane to go 400 mph used a FIXED pitch wooden prop.

Back in the thirties, when Thompson Trophy racers were using the "racehorse" start, nobody had fully variable pitch props. What they did have was a very simple mechanism used in some planes for a two position prop that allowed the pilot to takeoff fast then switch gears for high speed. Wouldn't be that complicated to recreate the mechanism today.

[Ratliff]

Just to add my twopenny worth as a rookie who only licenced for the first time last year.

Why the concerns about the fastest accelerating vehicle at Bonneville? I was always under the impression that ultimate top speeds were the goals rather than ultimate acceleration. I drag race in the UK for my acceleration thrills, perhaps a drag strip would be a good way to test the acceleration capablities of the Propster.

Speaking as someone who has just found that their car is not eligible to do class runs at Bonneville, I don't understand the stance taken by Franklin. Surely the thing to do is to talk to all involved in the governing body, of which there HAS to be one for any events of this status, and try and find a solution that suits everybodys needs instead of giving them a hard time over their decision. There has to be rules and regs, it would be impossible to run without them, and the trick is to abide by those rules. If you don't want to then don't come out to play.

In my case it was a simple case of converting my car from 4 door to 2 door that put it outside of any recognised classes. I won't be changing the shell again to fit in as I am self financing and self building and will not risk my home financially to build a car so for me I can't play. The upshot is that a friend of mine, who is also my crew chief when I'm drag racing, wants to build a drop tank racer and we will build it....with the rule book firmly in hand.

I wouldn't call Richard Noble or Andy Green second rate citizens just because they drove a thrust driven car (Thrust SSC) and I'm truckstop sure nobody on here is saying that anyone with a thrust driven vehicle is second rate, it's just that there is no category for non wheel driven vehicles.

Instead of complaining I would say that you have a golden opportunity here to set up an equivalent group (independently) that purely deals with thrust driven vehicles, wheel driven not allowed, and runs it's own seperate events. Given time and effort it could grow in popularity as man's quest for new and novel ways to go faster is a given.

Sorry for the newbie ramblings, it's just the way I see it from a newcomers point of view.

Records validate rules. Rules don't validate records. The only valid purpose of rules in land speed racing is to establish a baseline for measuring technical progress through increases in performance. When rules don't do that, then land speed racing just becomes a car show with a really fast parade.

Out of the 107 Bonneville SCTA car records listed in the 1974 rulebook (i.e., all those records set by the end of 1973), 44 were 200 mph or faster. The slowest record listed, set in 1967 in H/Grand Touring, was 109.527 mph. There were no records below 100 mph. Every single record was triple digits.
 
Out of the 108 car records set at the 2008 Speedweek, 51 were 200 mph or faster. However, there were also records set of 106.531 mph, 103.978 mph, 93.994 mph, and 82.803 mph.

[Ratliff]

Once again. Your car may very well be accepted as an Altered sedan. Contact the people who actually can give you an answer. Franklin was offered the chance to run his car at Bonneville and Maxton. His excuse for not running it was that he has been so unsuccessful in his life that he can not afford to travel to Utah. I believe that.

What you believe in is myth, folklore, rumors, and stupidity.