Kenetic Energy Recovery Systems

[Harold Bettes]

Personally I just love anything that fundamentally violates the second law.

Perpetual motion is an oft wished for result when there is little or no understanding of basic mechanisms.

The only thing that might be free is advice such as this. Everything else comes at a cost that one must be willing to pay for in either emotional or financial capital.

OK. That's my rant for the moment.

Regards to All,
HB2

[Dean Los Angeles]

There is no question that the trend of this conversation is correct.

Here's the problem. Nobody has control of the rule book. It is a nebulous connection between 12 clubs and the SCTA board. A proposed rule change is chewed on, mixed up, and spit out by all of the above.

I sent in a proposed rule change that didn't change anything, just put the motorcycle rules in a far easier to read fashion. Totally ignored.

I submitted a modified Bonneville pdf entry form that allowed you to type on the form. Since the entry codes are well established, I put them in a pull down menu with the full entry description instead of plowing through the rule book. Seen it? I didn't think so.

I, and every one else I have run across has had a tough time even figuring out how to get started at El Mirage. I wrote down every step and put it in a new racers information sheet. I sent it to Dan.

From: Roy Creel <cree@antelecom.net>
Subject: the racer "primer"
To: "dan warner" <dwarner230@yahoo.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 17, 2009, 3:58 PM

dan, been thinking about that guy who wrote up all those instructions about how to start racing.
 
I think that he should make a deal with John, and post it somewhere on LR.com under his own authorship.
It is of value, I just don't think we should undertake  the chore (right now) .
 Actually, I kinda think that "learning the ropes" is part of the fun.

Yeah, good luck with the SCTA.

[sockjohn]

I submitted a modified Bonneville pdf entry form that allowed you to type on the form. Since the entry codes are well established, I put them in a pull down menu with the full entry description instead of plowing through the rule book. Seen it? I didn't think so.

I bet there are some people who would like to see it, myself included.  Just because it's not adopted doesn't mean it isn't useful!

See, that's the problem with attempting to suppress innovation: when you're right (you have anticipated all forms of evil), all progress stops, and you have IROC revisited.

The problems remain:

1. the level of interest (both official and informal) in actually making rules that do whatever is believed necessary (exactly what they do is another question) is rather low.

2. the ability (as demonstrated by the existing rules) to form the intent into language suitable to make the rules both understandable (remove all but the 10th percentile of "is this legal" questions) and enforceable (same effect every time, no exceptions, no subjective interpretation) is even worse.

Panic,
the original post and the KERS is essentially a NEW class or a way to cheat depending on where you stand.  Do we really need a new class?

I could put a 50 HP electric motor on a 50cc bike and call the electric motor a starter motor... 
or I could run in a 500cc car class and start the motor the moment I leave tech, and run up a flywheel for three days before making a run...

We don't want to dictate battery technology (after all, lead acid batteries could get banned by the EPA eventually) or starter size (what is the size of a starter on some of the diesel trucks?) and do we want rules dictating when and how long you can start your entry? 

There are safety rules and their are class rules, and making KERS a new class is probably valid in some peoples minds, but it is probably going to be a tough sell.

[interested bystander]

Bored on a Sunday afternoon, back to the subject that started the thread.

KERS is a Kinetic Energy RECOVERY system  In LSR you'd have to make a pass to recover any KINETIC energy. By regenerative braking, or something similar.
By definition , KERS has no application in Landspeed racing.

Fact is since day one ANYBODY that gets pushed off the line has gotten a Kinetic assist.

Back in the '80s a local drag race Super Stock racer and I discussed using the starter to help launch the car as well as using electric oil and H20 pumps. The starter would give a kinetic ASSIST, like McRat described

[Dean Los Angeles]

Bonneville entry form
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/dean4/_images/SpeedWeek%202009%20Entry%20Blank.pdf
El Mirage New Participant Check Sheet
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/dean4/_images/New%20Participant.doc

[sabat]

if it doesn't say you can do it specifically, you can't

Really?
They've anticipated where each individual molecule of metal must be?
Every valve spring rate?
Every port shape?
Every fuel droplet?

See, that's the problem with attempting to suppress innovation: when you're right (you have anticipated all forms of evil), all progress stops, and you have IROC revisited.
Happily, this conceit (although popular) is a complete fiction, much like 1st Amendment law.
Let's dispense with moralizing for a brief moment: any "official" who thinks he knows everything that can be done has a very poor grasp of the subject, and an ego in inverse proportion.
Smokey made those people look pretty stupid for 30 years (found something they thought was off the table, and used it), didn't he (and to a lesser extent, Garlits, Moss, Widmer, Robinson, Taglioni)?
And they were sooooo p*ssed off every single time they thought "now, we're done - no wiggle room here", and he did it again.

I invite those who disagree to search prior posts for comments I made that (although may prove impractical, or not cost-effective) were outside the current rules - and were instantly met with "don't be ridiculous, everyone knows what that means", "no one would ever do that", "what would be the point", etc.

The problems remain:

1. the level of interest (both official and informal) in actually making rules that do whatever is believed necessary (exactly what they do is another question) is rather low.

2. the ability (as demonstrated by the existing rules) to form the intent into language suitable to make the rules both understandable (remove all but the 10th percentile of "is this legal" questions) and enforceable (same effect every time, no exceptions, no subjective interpretation) is even worse.

Don't be depressed - Congress can't do it, and the Supreme Court is only slightly better.
SCTA rules could be dramatically improved with only minor changes of language with no effect on current records - if the will be present.

For posterity.

It seems simple to me that the source of power to the wheels should be limited to the engine displacement class. Nothing else.

[Stan Back]

Dean --

As one who see every SW entry form, I beg to differ.  About 20% can't fill them out by hand, and getting them to have to type them in or use pop-up menus wouldn't help the ones that can't use a computer or type. I've seen thousands of them and we've revised the form a time or two.  Seems easy to us that have seen it year ofter year -- we just can't seem to make it better for the oldies and the newbies.

Stan Back

[Rex Schimmer]

The first KERS system that I ever saw, didn't call it KERS at the time, was Pete Robinson's "jack" car. Many of you "older" guys may have remembered seeing it at Lions back in the early 60s. Pete would come to the line and had a pair of air jacks that would lift the rear tires clear of the ground. He would let out the clutch rev the engine to the sky and drop the jacks. As I remember CJ Hart let him do it one time and that was it. He then lowered the jacks a little and would use it to clean the slicks. Just never occured to me to call it a Kinetic Energy Recovery System! Of course Pete was not really recovering energy he was storing it in the wheels and slicks. Probaby would have been a KESS, Kinetic Energy Storage System!

Rex

[1194]

Hey, how about a M/C with a "heavy" rear wheel
for LSR??  Been tested in Europe.....it worked
......picked up 5mph...........no other changes except the rear wheel........would it be SCTA/BNI
legal?

PS. It takes a fairly long run in order to get the
"fly-wheel " effect.........................................................

[Blue]

D--- I love this site.  It is incredible how many active participants in this sport can intelligently and forcefully disagree on a subject and still get along.

[panic]

It seems simple to me that the source of power to the wheels should be limited to the engine displacement class.

I agree, no form of on-board energy storage should be permitted:
1. no compressed gas of any kind, including fire systems, shifters or pressurized fuel tanks
2. no hydraulics unless the accumulator is dumped
2. no batteries or capacitors for any purpose - crank or remote start only

That will disqualify 99% of the cars.

Returning to planet Earth for a brief instant:
Obviously, a 3,000 hp 300 mph streamliner needs a charging system and a big battery just for ignition, and a 50cc does not - any battery at all completely frees it from parasitic charging load. Rather than try to force a trade-off (how much weight vs. hp) just allow a free battery.
Simply agree to pardon by exclusion conventional batteries up to X amp hours and compressed gas for all purposes up to Y cubic inches at Z psi. How big is X? As large as the largest battery in a current record holder, so all existing are legal.

Exceptions for safety and special purpose? Apply for waiver.

[sabat]

It seems simple to me that the source of power to the wheels should be limited to the engine displacement class.

I agree, no form of on-board energy storage should be permitted:
1. no compressed gas of any kind, including fire systems, shifters or pressurized fuel tanks
2. no hydraulics unless the accumulator is dumped
2. no batteries or capacitors for any purpose - crank or remote start only

That will disqualify 99% of the cars.

If any other these sources of energy directed power to the wheels, then they should be disqualified IMHO. I imagine the incidence would be considerably less than 99%. Impound inspectors would need to be sensitive to the possibility, but that's true for all class restrictions.

[DallasV]

using a combustion engine and kenitic energy to drive the wheels makes the vehicle a hybrid. I don't believe there are any classes for hybrids.

[Blue]

About 25 years ago in either Trans Am or GTO, some team put a second engine in the back to run the alternator, water pumps, FI, etc.  It took them a year to ban it.  This will be a bigger issue as hybrid technology becomes available to flip a switch and get the batteries to discharge through the alternator (motor-generator) and back-drive that system into the power train.  I just don't think this will be a big issue though.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, it seems to me that Bonneville is much more of a traction and aero-drag problem than a pure power one.  People who have asked my advice seem to have plenty of power left over when they hit their respective aero vs. traction limits and spin the tires.  Most vehicles seem to be limited by acceleration and wheel spin so a little extra boost for the few seconds of the timed mile wouldn't seem to be a major advantage.

HB- What? YOU'VE never invented a perpetual motion device???    All aspiring engineers have...

Then they took the pacifier out of our mouths and taught us the 2nd law.

[interested bystander]

Blue - The second paragraph of your last post should be etched in stone and put at the El Mirage, Maxton, DLRA, Salt Flats, etc. entrances. (And maybe somehow embedded in the brains of all Landspeed participants).

Figure a way around THOSE monumental problems,then go after the trick stuff!

Your statement probably messes up a few people's plans to "Rule the Landspeed World".