Author Topic: Kenetic Energy Recovery Systems  (Read 23877 times)

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Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Kenetic Energy Recovery Systems
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2009, 12:22:37 PM »
Ah, grasshopper! The ancient ones do not respect the rule of the book. The ancient ones (read - SCTA/BNI) believe in the altruistic form of racing. "Because we said so."

There are many areas not covered by the rules that would never be allowed. Save your time, money, and hours and stick to "normal".

Running oxygen isn't in the rule book. Wanna give it a try?

Oh, and if you think you can just sneak it by and argue later, the ancient ones are sadistic, mean and cruel when it comes to slamming down on violaters.
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline Stan Back

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Re: Kenetic Energy Recovery Systems
« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2009, 02:29:29 PM »
The "spirit of the rule" comes into play in the SCTA.  If you've seen the Rule Book, it doesn't cover every eventuality, nor tell you how to build your vehicle.  The "coots" in the SCTA wield a great deal of power, and it's not always foreseeible.  But they built the field and layed out the bases and pretty much run the game. 
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Offline RichFox

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Re: Kenetic Energy Recovery Systems
« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2009, 02:47:53 PM »
Judging from your location maybe you should inquire of the DLRA if they would allow it. If it works as well as you hope then go to the FIA. SCTA rules are good for the SCTA. But it's not the only game in town. If you don't like them go where you do like them.

McRat

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Re: Kenetic Energy Recovery Systems
« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2009, 03:45:01 PM »
IMO (as a new LSR racer):

If you use locomotive power that comes from something other than the engine at the given displacement, then in essence the "single engine" rule is violated, IMO.

Put a BIG arse generator/motor assy on the car, and 500lb of batteries for "ballast".  When you get rolling, then flip the field switch and turn your generator into a motor, and pick up >10HP.  Next step, run 5 "generators" on a tooth accessory belt, and 2000lb of batteries.  Even if the engine is what generated the electricity, it would still be violating the spirit of the rules.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 03:48:45 PM by McRat »

Offline panic

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Re: Kenetic Energy Recovery Systems
« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2009, 07:42:58 PM »
Does no one else see the absurdity of "spirit of the rules"?
Getting close to self-contradiction.
The entire purpose of rules is so that the spirit is not subject to invocation as a deterrent - the rules ARE the interpretation.

Offline willieworld

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Re: Kenetic Energy Recovery Systems
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2009, 08:14:37 PM »
ive heard of the "spirit of the rules" and the secret handshake but if it isnt in the rule book it doesnt count and i pay it no mind  --i would like nothing better than for someone to explain it to me ---i dont think anyone will or can  --if its in the "spirit of the rules" then it should be in the rule book --or maybe the   "spirit of the rules" are the "unwritten rules" that ive heard about also    willie buchta
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Offline maguromic

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Re: Kenetic Energy Recovery Systems
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2009, 08:40:57 PM »
ive heard of the "spirit of the rules" and the secret handshake but if it isnt in the rule book it doesnt count and i pay it no mind  --i would like nothing better than for someone to explain it to me ---i dont think anyone will or can  --if its in the "spirit of the rules" then it should be in the rule book --or maybe the   "spirit of the rules" are the "unwritten rules" that ive heard about also    willie buchta

Well said Willie.

Racers are racers and if its not in the rule book someone will eventually will find something to exploit.  :evil:

In the 2007 rule book Rule 2.A was modified ("For any engine to be considered for cubic inch (cc) requirements, the engine shall have contributed to the propulsion of the vehicle") because of such an issue of "spirit of the rules".  There is a new rear engine roadster that is requiring the rules committee to redefine and rewrite the headrest and parachute pack faring rule for next year. As Willie mentioned how do you define the spirit of the rule? It just cant be done unless its written.

With all due respect I don't think many young and old would know a KERS unit if they seen one.  The Bosch unit is very small and the Magneti unit is even smaller.  The big problem with KERS is the shock that some mechanics have gotten.  In preseason testing a few mechanics were taken to the hospital from the shock. If you look at the teams now they all have big rubber gloves when they work on the cars and all the safety workers carry rubber gloves for an emergency. I would be more worried about the safety workers than a record falling because of KERS.  If you don't want to see KERS put in the rule book or I am sure this technology will show up on the salt soon.  Tony

« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 08:55:15 PM by maguromic »
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Offline Tzoom

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Re: Kenetic Energy Recovery Systems
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2009, 08:43:17 PM »
Section 2 of the rules has no provision for electric assist motors.  If someone wants to use KERS and run in a gas/fuel class that would violate the "spirit of the rules" that dictate an engine be fueled by gas or other fuels.  I could care less if someone wants to build a car that incorporates KERS.  And as soon as a hybrid class is created then they could go grab all the records they can.      
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 09:00:52 PM by Tzoom »
Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games --- Ernest Hemingway

Offline Buickguy3

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Re: Kenetic Energy Recovery Systems
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2009, 08:53:10 PM »
      They could eliminate a lot of these problems by stating on the first page of the rule book: If these rules don't say that you can do something, YOU CAN'T. Period. End of discussion. Then you can petition for a change. I know that this is SCTA, but that's how many of the problems were solved in that other organization.[NHRA].  :cheers:
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Offline interested bystander

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Re: Kenetic Energy Recovery Systems
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2009, 09:54:04 PM »
These comments bring up the Catch 22 in the SCTA/BNI rules.

You can enter in a class,that you think you're legal and then get busted  and lose a red hat maybe.

Its' happend more than once.

Conversely, the rule system safety-wise, is better than most others.

Having the category chairperson(s) ALSO competing in your chosen category is a "Fox watching the chicken coop" thing sometimes. I got no better solution, though.

5 mph in pit area (clothed)

Offline STUTZ

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Re: Kenetic Energy Recovery Systems
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2009, 10:32:08 PM »
With all due respect to the SCTA, this is an orginisation with a very basic rulebook , i for one  would argue one with very archaic rules. But i fully understand this. With all American motorsports, rules are written for one basic reason and that is to keep costs down so anyone can have a shot. KERS has been introduced to F1 but soon road cars will have this technology.What will happen when someone rolls up in a few years from now with a factory car fitted with KERS? Who will police it? Will the guy or girl who set a record in their late model today protest the competitor with a car fitted with KERS, who ,in a few years from now breaks the existing record. I think the SCTA coudn't do a thing? Maybe it's time for a rules revision.

Offline willieworld

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Re: Kenetic Energy Recovery Systems
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2009, 11:20:12 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHPrOloikVE&NR=1                  willie buchta
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 11:43:49 PM by willieworld »
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Offline panic

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Re: Kenetic Energy Recovery Systems
« Reply #57 on: May 03, 2009, 11:27:46 AM »
If these rules don't say that you can do something, YOU CAN'T. Period. End of discussion.

And, the end of racing.

Which is why no sanctioning body has ever, ever done that.

I just love rule discussions, they're almost as helpful as banging my head against the wall.

McRat

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Re: Kenetic Energy Recovery Systems
« Reply #58 on: May 03, 2009, 12:04:58 PM »
If these rules don't say that you can do something, YOU CAN'T. Period. End of discussion.

And, the end of racing.

Which is why no sanctioning body has ever, ever done that.

I just love rule discussions, they're almost as helpful as banging my head against the wall.

Last time I raced with "no exceptions" rules was SCCA Solo2 racing.  In stock classes, if it doesn't say you can do it specifically, you can't.

A gentleman (I'm not going to name him) won the Nationals, someone noticed he had some welding done on the front suspension because of an accident in a previous race.  He lost the championship over it.  It didn't say you couldn't do welding repair, but it didn't say you can either. 

Most rulebooks have some "no exceptions" rules, but yeah, few are like Solo2 type rulebooks.
It appears to me the SCTA book has very little "no exceptions" content.  Probably because there are no true stock classes. 
IIRC, NHRA Top Fuel has numerous "no exceptions" sections in their book as does NASCAR.

Offline panic

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Re: Kenetic Energy Recovery Systems
« Reply #59 on: May 03, 2009, 03:05:15 PM »
if it doesn't say you can do it specifically, you can't

Really?
They've anticipated where each individual molecule of metal must be?
Every valve spring rate?
Every port shape?
Every fuel droplet?

See, that's the problem with attempting to suppress innovation: when you're right (you have anticipated all forms of evil), all progress stops, and you have IROC revisited.
Happily, this conceit (although popular) is a complete fiction, much like 1st Amendment law.
Let's dispense with moralizing for a brief moment: any "official" who thinks he knows everything that can be done has a very poor grasp of the subject, and an ego in inverse proportion.
Smokey made those people look pretty stupid for 30 years (found something they thought was off the table, and used it), didn't he (and to a lesser extent, Garlits, Moss, Widmer, Robinson, Taglioni)?
And they were sooooo p*ssed off every single time they thought "now, we're done - no wiggle room here", and he did it again.

I invite those who disagree to search prior posts for comments I made that (although may prove impractical, or not cost-effective) were outside the current rules - and were instantly met with "don't be ridiculous, everyone knows what that means", "no one would ever do that", "what would be the point", etc.

The problems remain:

1. the level of interest (both official and informal) in actually making rules that do whatever is believed necessary (exactly what they do is another question) is rather low.

2. the ability (as demonstrated by the existing rules) to form the intent into language suitable to make the rules both understandable (remove all but the 10th percentile of "is this legal" questions) and enforceable (same effect every time, no exceptions, no subjective interpretation) is even worse.

Don't be depressed - Congress can't do it, and the Supreme Court is only slightly better.
SCTA rules could be dramatically improved with only minor changes of language with no effect on current records - if the will be present.