Landracing Forum Home
May 19, 2013, 06:49:46 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News:
BACK TO LANDRACING.COM HOMEPAGE
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  

(Note: Donations are not tax deductible)
Pages: 1 ... 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 [57] 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 ... 171   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 156442 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Milwaukee Midget
Global Moderator
Hero Member
****
Offline Offline

Age: 53
Location: Beerhaven, Wisconsin
Posts: 3158


If in doubt, it probably IS a mistake.



« Reply #840 on: November 24, 2011, 12:39:58 AM »

I'm so busted - yeah, I trade beer for parts.

Speaking of parts - this appeared on ebay a short time back.  It's a Formula 3 BMC short stroke crank for the A-series inline engine.

I can't complain about the one I had made up, but shucks, man, this would have been so darned cool.  Probably the rarest of all factory BMC A series race parts -

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMC-FORMULA-3-CRANKSHAFT-40B-MG-SPRITE-RACE-/120704376673

Why wasn't this for sale last December?!?!?
Logged

"Information - we want - information"
Koncretekid
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Age: 65
Location: Yarmouth, Nova Scotia & Lafayette, Co.
Posts: 477





Ignore
« Reply #841 on: November 24, 2011, 12:10:56 PM »

I have a question about Bill's dyno readout.  I see that the "x" scale is calibrated in mph instead of RPM, but it shouldn't matter.  But what I see is that your torque curve was still building when you ended the run.  Because hp is simply torque multiplied by rpm (and a fudge factor), unless your torque starts dropping at a rate faster than a 45 degree line, you could get more horsepower by increasing rpm.  Oh, I forgot - -that's a Harley.  Maybe your rpm's are maxed out.
Tom
Logged

We get too soon oldt, and too late schmart!
Life's uncertain - eat dessert first!
saltwheels262
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 59
Location: cuyahoga county
Posts: 797


LORING 9/12




Ignore
« Reply #842 on: November 24, 2011, 12:31:31 PM »

tom,

not sure about the x scale.
there is an rpm  scale on the right side of the readout.

the motor builder did say that power will not increase above 5500 rpm.
also said motor will wear out quicker at higher engine speeds.
rpm limiter is set at 6100. with the gearing I have, runs are completed
about 5460.

hope to see you again , at the races in  '12.

bill
Logged

bub '07 - 140.293 a/pg   120" crate street mill      
max 10/07 - a/pf   d license
bub '08 - 153.697 a/pf   pump gas
bub '09 - 156.377 aps/pf  ran out of gear
lta  '10 - 158.208  2 much gear 2x
bub '10 - 158.100  sweetooth gear
lta  7/11 -163.389  7/17/11; 3 run avg.-162.450
                probably it for that mill, as is.
ohio - (1) 185.076 w/#684 
          (2) 182.xxx w/20+ mph winds
lta  9/12  -148mph  in 3rd gear w/new #262 ( couldn't
                pull the rear gear in 4 much less 5 )
ohio - (4)  -153.x~in 4th.(+4 @the rear & leaving 1k+
      rpm on the table)
turborick
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Age: 48
Location: Palmdale, Ca
Posts: 101


Go as fast as we can with as little as we can


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #843 on: November 24, 2011, 12:46:26 PM »

Here are a couple from about 15 years ago of my old Turbo GSXR 1100





Logged

Rick Yacoucci

Nebulous Theorem III #788
http://www.bonnevillestreamliner.com
Milwaukee Midget
Global Moderator
Hero Member
****
Offline Offline

Age: 53
Location: Beerhaven, Wisconsin
Posts: 3158


If in doubt, it probably IS a mistake.



« Reply #844 on: November 24, 2011, 01:05:08 PM »

Thanks, Rick.  I'm seeing "S=3" on your first printout - is the "S" the "smoothing"?

Anybody got a definition of what that means?
Logged

"Information - we want - information"
turborick
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Age: 48
Location: Palmdale, Ca
Posts: 101


Go as fast as we can with as little as we can


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #845 on: November 24, 2011, 02:23:55 PM »

Thanks, Rick.  I'm seeing "S=3" on your first printout - is the "S" the "smoothing"?

Anybody got a definition of what that means?

yes S=3 is smoothing factor 3

I have never seen a dyno graph so full of spikes as yours.
the only time I see spikes on my dyno is when the engine misfires bad or the tach signal is getting corrupted.
listening to your video your engine appears to be misfiring.
10 to 1 is the lower limit on most wide band units so it could be richer even, I would expect your engine to misfire being that rich.
Logged

Rick Yacoucci

Nebulous Theorem III #788
http://www.bonnevillestreamliner.com
4-barrel Mike
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 65
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1873


Any fool can drive a V8




Ignore
« Reply #846 on: November 24, 2011, 03:36:22 PM »

I think I'm going to buy myself an early Xmas present: http://www.amazon.com/Dyno-Testing-Tuning-Harold-Bettes/dp/1934709743/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1322166407&sr=8-2

OBTW, Harold hasn't been on site since April, anyone know why?

Mike
Logged

Mike Kelly - PROUD owner of the V4F that powered the #1931 VGC to a 82.803 mph record in 2008!
Milwaukee Midget
Global Moderator
Hero Member
****
Offline Offline

Age: 53
Location: Beerhaven, Wisconsin
Posts: 3158


If in doubt, it probably IS a mistake.



« Reply #847 on: November 24, 2011, 04:34:33 PM »

Thanks, Rick.  I'm seeing "S=3" on your first printout - is the "S" the "smoothing"?

Anybody got a definition of what that means?

yes S=3 is smoothing factor 3

I have never seen a dyno graph so full of spikes as yours.
the only time I see spikes on my dyno is when the engine misfires bad or the tach signal is getting corrupted.
listening to your video your engine appears to be misfiring.
10 to 1 is the lower limit on most wide band units so it could be richer even, I would expect your engine to misfire being that rich.

Hmm . . ., okay, you're hearing misfire.  I'll admit it's struggling to get on the cam, but guess I'm missing what you're hearing.  I'm taking this all in - just want to go faster.  wink
Logged

"Information - we want - information"
Ron Gibson
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Age: 72
Location: Omaha NE
Posts: 217




Ignore
« Reply #848 on: November 24, 2011, 06:17:54 PM »

Ok, After my ears stop bleeding, stupid question. I know nothing about recording but would it be possible to slow the sound track down and scope it for intensity. Maybe see if a missing cylinder shows on scope.
Logged

Life is an abrasive. Whether you get ground away or polished to a shine depends on what you are made of.
Captthundarr
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 52
Location: Swansboro, NC
Posts: 887


In line




Ignore
« Reply #849 on: November 24, 2011, 06:25:44 PM »

Chris, Happy Turkeyday. I don't pretend to know much about dyno work but I can read a few printouts. After reviewing the videos again I'm with Rick. There seems to be a lot of misfire then smooths out when it comes on the cam with the occasional pop. At first I couldn't tell if it was the audio on the vid then listened on my desk top with sound system. I' m kind of on the tuning learning curve with you. Would an over rich condition at the carb cause the miss?Huh undecided
Logged

Live,Laugh, Love /  Jack Scratch Racing /ECTA   
Amy Hartman-Driver, Frank Hartman-everthing else.
C/GALT 137.65 Ohio Mile
Milwaukee Midget
Global Moderator
Hero Member
****
Offline Offline

Age: 53
Location: Beerhaven, Wisconsin
Posts: 3158


If in doubt, it probably IS a mistake.



« Reply #850 on: November 25, 2011, 02:07:32 AM »

Thanks, guys.
 
Ron - I could download the audio track into ProTools, an audio recording program, and probably break it down to each pulse, but given that the recording method was fairly low resolution, the room was very live, with lots of audio reflection, and the microphones were simple, built-in condensers intended for consumer use, I doubt if I could get it to reveal anything of consequence.

Mike - THE Harold Bettes?  As in "huntin' for signs " Harold?

I'll drop him a PM - Hope he's doing well.  He's a sharp mind.

Here's a good link regarding HP loss at the rear wheels - it's in an old forum that Harold used to write on, and gives a pretty concise outline regarding drivetrain loss issues.

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=116240

Yeah, I'll pick up the book.

A point Mark Wolbrink brought up during the session was he wondered if the drums were loaded correctly.  Any thoughts?

I like to think I'm still capable of checking my ego at the door, and I want to get this right, so I've got to ask myself, is the dyno lying, or are my senses completely off base with this one?

Regarding the mixture - At about 52 seconds into the second video, the car fires up, and there's a little whiff of white smoke on fire up, which clears right away.  If the mixture was rich - 10:1 or better - I should be seeing black smoke.  And as poorly as it idles with 310 degrees of duration, I would expect it to load up the plugs, which are 2 heat ranges colder than stock.  I should also see a lot of black soot in the exhaust pipe.  I wiped out the end of the exhaust pipe with a white paper towel, and pulled out a light dusting of dry, gray soot.

I pulled the plugs after each run.  They were gray/tan, and looked like a textbook picture of what a "normal" plug should look like.

The line on the A/F ratio on the graph is flat as Kansas, which means one of two things - either it was reading a mixture so wrong that it failed to produce anything other than a line representing the limits of its readout capabilities, or it wasn't working at all.  If it was indeed higher than 10:1 A/F, certainly the exhaust and plugs should have indicated that, so my inclination, for the time being, is to suspect that the sniffer was malfunctioning.

Regarding the spikes in the graph.  If indeed, the power output of the engine was as erratic as the line indicates, and the graph is indicating numerous wild swings of 15 hp in a 700 rpm band in 4th gear, wouldn't that rattle the living hades out of the drivetrain?  My foot was planted, I was sitting on an unpadded aluminum seat with my hand on the shifter - about as physically intimate with this thing as I could be with my clothes on.  From the driver's seat, it was smooth and uneventful.  Other than the shifts, I'm not seeing any undue bobbing in the car during the runs.  I would think one would be able to see a 25% swing in horsepower application in the video.

Maybe I don't know what a misfire sounds like - I clearly hear it stumbling before it gets on the cam, but I'm not hearing it once the head starts flowing.  Can someone tell me what I should be listening to?

Again, everyone, thanks for the input - it's been a steep learning curve.








Logged

"Information - we want - information"
WhizzbangK.C.
Full Member
***
Online Online

Age: 51
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 115


Ed Bennett, Speed Team Doo Kansas City fab shop.




Ignore
« Reply #851 on: November 25, 2011, 07:59:11 AM »

When I'm troubleshooting something, at my "day" job or at home, and some reading doesn't seem to be making sense, I always perform a "reality check". For example, if it's an electrical problem and getting a wonky reading on my meter, I'll take the same reading with a different meter, to see if they jibe. Or I'll take a reading in the same place on a different vehicle, or take a "known value" reading on one of the parts I keep in my box for such an event.

In the case of your A/F reading, you should call your dyno guy and tell him of your concerns. It would be an easy thing to plug his sensor into another vehicle and take a reading. If it were a stock street vehicle and he gets the same reading, the sensor would be obviously bad. I'd think he'd want to know this.

One would think that a professional operation would have extra sensors on hand, as well as a method to calibrate and verify their readings. Seems necessary to me to provide the basic service with full confidence.

Do not under any circumstances start messing with A/F ratio on the basis of the readings that you have there. Sensors can lie, physical reality has a much harder time doing that. With visual indications that you are not extremely rich, the sensor needs to be verified accurate before you even think about jetting changes. Last year Brian burned a piston due to this exact mistake. Expensive lesson learned.  embarassed
Logged

Ah, this is obviously some strange usage of the word 'safe' that I wasn't previously aware of.  Douglas Adams
Buickguy3
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Age: 68
Location: Columbus,Mt.
Posts: 478





Ignore
« Reply #852 on: November 25, 2011, 08:43:19 AM »

   Get a second [or third ] opinion. Take some close-up photos of the plugs and send them to Rick at ERC. He gave us lots of insight on issues that we were having last year. He's helpful and easy to work with. Just a thought.
   Doug  cheers cheers cheers
Logged

I keep going faster and faster and I don't know why. All I have to do is live and die.
                   [America]
38flattie
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 50
Location: Greeley, Colorado
Posts: 1690



WWW

Ignore
« Reply #853 on: November 25, 2011, 06:09:10 PM »

Chris, I finally made it home, and was able to watch the video! Man, that thing sounds mean! I sure hope you get everything figured out cheers
Logged

With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

http://www.facebook.com/FlatCadRacing
http://www.flatcadracing.org/
http://youtu.be/89rVb497_4c
Tman
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Location: Black Hills, South Dakota
Posts: 2639




Ignore
« Reply #854 on: December 01, 2011, 01:11:41 PM »

Chris, the Eagle is in the nest and all eggs are fine cheers
Logged

www.compulsionrodandcustom.com
Hotrod, racing and performance parts
Pages: 1 ... 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 [57] 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 ... 171   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!


Google visited last this page April 21, 2013, 06:49:09 AM