Milwaukee Midget

[Jon]

Hi Midget

Have you heard of A. Graham Bell's Four Stroke Performance Tuning?
It has a bit of info on getting good flow & swirl in the Mini heads (guessing Midgets have same heads)

My old purple cover version eventually fell apart, the reprint has been updated with EFI info.


Jon

[Milwaukee Midget]

Hi Midget

Have you heard of A. Graham Bell's Four Stroke Performance Tuning?
It has a bit of info on getting good flow & swirl in the Mini heads (guessing Midgets have same heads)

My old purple cover version eventually fell apart, the reprint has been updated with EFI info.


Jon

Seems to be favorite of Aussies, this A. Graham Bell fella - you're not the first to mention him.  Tough to look up anything about him on the interwebs - some wacko with a very similar name seems to have invented an electronic communications device . . .

That guess would be right - largely interchangeable.  I'm committed to the head I have presently, but that might change for next year.

[wisdonm]

Hey Chris, have you gutted that water pump yet?

[Milwaukee Midget]

Hey Chris, have you gutted that water pump yet?

Don - A trick I'm not aware of.  I've heard of it on older SBC's running dirt tracks.  I'm toying with the idea of a Moroso electric drive for the WP, if that's what you're getting at.

[fordboy628]

Hi Midget,

Phil @ APT's plan seems sensible about the valves.  Equalizing the valve face to head face dimension is the correct way to go to balance cc's/cyl.  If this is not done, you are just chasing your tail on C/ratio per cyl & valve to piston clr per cyl.  Its' an important part of "blueprinting" often ignored.   Valve inner & outer springs need to be checked separately at a checking height.  Springs can then be matched into pairs to equalize pressures.  Stronger spring pairs should be placed on the exhaust valves.

What is the weight savings per retainer in grams/dollar?  Steel Vs. Titanium Vs. Aluminum?   I have some steel & alloy retainers you can have for free (well for beer....)  My guess is that the Titanium retainers sound sexy but have little benefit in weight reduction over the total mass of the valve train.   Also came across some NOS Isky valve springs & Isky pushrods, all still in the package, whilst on my BMC snipe hunt.  Let's see if anything is suitable.

Just recalled:  Don't fabricate bungs for EGT probes, use shaft collars (of the proper I.D.  .25" is typical) with a set screw thread to fasten probes in to place.  Collars can be welded/brazed to the header tubes, in a location that does not interfere with inlet manifolds, etc.  A good hardware store or McMaster-Carr has these.

Do you have records or a chart of valve to piston clearance from 20 degrees BTDC(exhaust) to 20 degrees ATDC (inlet)??   Typically the closet point is going to be around 8 degrees before/after for ex/inlet, but of course that depends on where the cam is timed.  And the scatter pattern timing adds a new twist (pun intended) to these calculations.   If nothing else, having this info will help you to decide where you might have to time the cam.     If you are going to have the engine out of the chassis, I will help you chart & graph this to make an intelligent choice.

Also, we spoke on the phone about checking engine ignition timing off the flywheel Vs. the damper.   Reasons being:

1]   Flywheel has larger diameter/circumference for more accurate markings.
2]   Flywheel is ridgidly attached to crankshaft.
3]   Outer ring of damper can (and does) move about @ rpm & is smaller.
4]   Damper/front cover is in a spot that is difficult to view/access.
5]   Photo you posted of pulling the damper by tensioning on the outer ring scared the hell out of me.  Pull only on the center hub with a smaller steering wheel
      puller, using bolts into the center hub.

The drawback to this method is that a slot must be placed in the bellhousing (if no other opening is convenient) and marks made on the flywheel for reference.  (Does your sanctioning body allow openings in the bellhousing??)  BUT, slot and marks DO NOT HAVE TO BE VERTICAL.  They can be placed wherever you wish for convenience.   

Will post what Weber bits I have later today.

A. Graham Bell is one of my favorite authors, although some stuff is probably a bit out of date.

I have discarded the anti-gravitational accessories from my Bat Tool belt essentials.   On December 21, 2012 when the earth's gravitational field goes awry (as the Mayans have predicted  ) I want my fat white posterior glued to the surface of the planet.  I have therefore replaced all the tools with squeeze bottles of condiments (mayo & 3 types of mustard) while still leaving room for 3 bottles of microbrew.   That is my plan & I'm sticking to it!!!!

Best,
MB

[Milwaukee Midget]

I have discarded the anti-gravitational accessories from my Bat Tool belt essentials.   On December 21, 2012 when the earth's gravitational field goes awry (as the Mayans have predicted  ) I want my fat white posterior glued to the surface of the planet.  I have therefore replaced all the tools with squeeze bottles of condiments (mayo & 3 types of mustard) while still leaving room for 3 bottles of microbrew.   That is my plan & I'm sticking to it!!!!

Best,
MB

When the Y2K scare was in full bloom, Mrs. Midget bought me a slide rule.  I guess I was supposed to hold it over my head to keep the airplanes from cracking my coconut. 

[fordboy628]

Hey!  Lots of very speedy dirigibles were engineered with slide rules.  I still have my Post "Versalog".  I keep it on my bedtable, in case I get lonely at night.

 

MB

[Tman]

Hey Chris, have you gutted that water pump yet?

Don - A trick I'm not aware of.  I've heard of it on older SBC's running dirt tracks.  I'm toying with the idea of a Moroso electric drive for the WP, if that's what you're getting at.

I brought up the Moroso pump drive in the chat and Michael Lefevers shouted out a definate NO!!!!!!!! He said those things barely keep up on the dragstrip let alone for 3-5 miles. I am glad that such experienced folks are here for advise

[zenndog]

I love this build, more pictures, more pictures, and then a few more for good measure.

I can't ever really get enough pictures, I don't know how everybody else feels.

While you have your head off, if it still is, take some pics from the different angles so we can see what makes it tick.

Remember that some of us have never put a wrench on an engine like yours and so we like to see lots of pics.

Did I mention that I like pics?

[Anvil*]

Bell's drawings on where to modify a BMC head is somewhat generic and used as an example, where the yellow Tuning A-series (Vizard) book reprints some of the templates from Vizard's earlier blue book (actualy printed a bit larger than in the blue book). Good to have all three books, but I'd stick with the templates in Vizard's yellow book for porting (IMO).

[Milwaukee Midget]

Pics as I produce them, ZD.  Wish they were as interesting as the Stude heads!

Bell's drawings on where to modify a BMC head is somewhat generic and used as an example, where the yellow Tuning A-series (Vizard) book reprints some of the templates from Vizard's earlier blue book (actualy printed a bit larger than in the blue book). Good to have all three books, but I'd stick with the templates in Vizard's yellow book for porting (IMO).

And of course, Dave Anton at APT and David Vizard were partners for a number of years.

Just to clarify where we're at, and not force anyone to have to dig through these pages, the head I'm using is a 12G 940 casting which was modified by Richard Longman in England.  It's a solid improvement over stock, but Dave Anton pointed out to me that given the large number of heads that Longman cut while he was in business, some of the techniques became a bit "cookie-cutter". 

Additionally, in the 13 years since the last revision of "Tuning the A-Series Engine" was printed, Dave Anton and his crew have continued to improve upon the methods and modifications done at APT.  They're getting better flow and swirl than ever before, and better results on the dyno.

Of course, any time you port a head to an extreme, you risk weakening it, often in areas you can't see.  Given Longman's history and record for reliability, a conservative, tested approach is not a bad thing.

Now all of that said, I need to be realistic.  The difference between the APT head and the Longman head in real world horsepower is incremental.  While it might not be the choice I would make today, it is the choice I made two years ago, and I remain confident that the Longman is up to the task.

Next year?  Next year is next year, and I'm eying up a Cooper casting for the arsenal.

But for this year, I'm confident I'll have a very workable combination that should be pretty straight forward as far as adjustability and durability is concerned.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - It's all a grand experiment. 

[Milwaukee Midget]

I brought up the Moroso pump drive in the chat and Michael Lefevers shouted out a definate NO!!!!!!!! He said those things barely keep up on the dragstrip let alone for 3-5 miles. I am glad that such experienced folks are here for advise

Hey, Trent -

Curious if it would be an issue in my application.  One of the points Vizard mentions (seems to always come back to DV) is that after about 2000 RPM, the pump is simply creating more drag, and at 2000 RPM on the tach, the pump is at maximum cooling capacity.

The bonus I see is that I can lose the alternator and the power being sucked up by that, and hang the motor there, which is allowed in GT.

Do you know what kind of engine Mike had problems with using the Moroso setup?

[38flattie]

Chris, I was wondering what the problem was also!

There are several pumps that will do the job, and only draw 6-7 amps. I don't think you will have a problem finding one, if you decide to go that route.

[Tman]

I brought up the Moroso pump drive in the chat and Michael Lefevers shouted out a definate NO!!!!!!!! He said those things barely keep up on the dragstrip let alone for 3-5 miles. I am glad that such experienced folks are here for advise

Hey, Trent -

Curious if it would be an issue in my application.  One of the points Vizard mentions (seems to always come back to DV) is that after about 2000 RPM, the pump is simply creating more drag, and at 2000 RPM on the tach, the pump is at maximum cooling capacity.

The bonus I see is that I can lose the alternator and the power being sucked up by that, and hang the motor there, which is allowed in GT.

Do you know what kind of engine Mike had problems with using the Moroso setup?

Call Lefevers, he was a HUGE help. Basically the things can't keep up with flow.

[wisdonm]

Do not use an electric pump drive. You don't have the room upfront. Use an inline water pump that can be mounted almost anywhere, like the firewall.

For those that say it can't be done, all I can say is nonsense. I have built and raced three different sports racing prototypes, with engines between 850 and 2,000cc. They all had electric water pumps, no alternators, and powered by just an old fashion car battery. I built the first one in '69. There was no high technology back then.

Each one of these cars never over heated and they all finished one hour long races. Oh, they also won multiple races and championships.

I know one of the pumps I used was a Jabsco Water Puppy.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jabsco-12V-Marine-Bronze-Water-Puppy-Pump-/320855557836?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&vxp=mtr&hash=item4ab47b46cc