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Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 2281708 times)

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Offline forker

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #7440 on: September 27, 2018, 10:10:10 AM »
I took it in to work today and hooked it up to one of my rental projectors to actually see a screen.

I read about some damned "toggling" function - something I certainly don't recall hitting, but probably occurred moving it in and out of the office to work on the car.  I "toggled" it back, and now it's working fine.


I think you got off lightly; imagine faffing about doing that on the salt under an awning. Or, not doing that. I bet we'd hear the outbursts from another state.

More evidence of recognising the impossible, eh?

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #7441 on: September 27, 2018, 10:16:26 AM »

I think you got off lightly; imagine faffing about doing that on the salt under an awning. Or, not doing that. I bet we'd hear the outbursts from another state.

More evidence of recognising the impossible, eh?

I had starter and carburetor issues in 2011 on the salt.  It's no place to go and have to try and fix something.

But what this taught me today is this - BACK UP YOUR TUNES AND CONFIGURATIONS ON SOME SORT OF STORAGE DEVICE.

Had this happened on the salt, it's likely I could have sourced another computer, but there would have been little chance of reconstructing a tune or configuration.

Woody:
My dad got me a copy of "Green River" for Christmas a number of years ago.  Learned how to play guitar by listening to CCR.
 :cheers:

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #7442 on: September 27, 2018, 12:07:37 PM »
MM said:
 
" BACK UP YOUR TUNES AND CONFIGURATIONS ON SOME SORT OF STORAGE DEVICE.
"


I use a little 2 TB solid state drive for backups - runs off a USB port and keeps everything remembered.
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #7443 on: September 29, 2018, 09:38:00 PM »
My word; that's a deep dive into the cellars. Looking.....

Company service info doesn't recognise this level of detail for the LR model using K1.8. Rover is no more; aftermarket now supports all of those owners.

Turning to cumulative wisdom of those who were here during those days and are still here now;

To our understanding, the connector on the pigtail has three flat pins in a row. It's rectangular in cross-section. It has a moulding with two ribs on both long sides, one side close together, one side far apart (relatively).

Holding the connector with the far-apart ribs down and looking from the wiring side, so seeing the individual wires as they enter the 'back' of the connector moulding,  pin 1 is the RH pin, pin 2 central, and pin 3 LH side.

In that context pin 3 is ground, pin 2 is signal, pin 1 is +12v.

It seems that the centre pin is signal, whether viewed from the pin side or the wire side of the connector moulding. Checking now if we have a view of polarity sensitivity...

It also seems the feature on the cam that the cam sensor sees is a step-up in diameter and a step-down in diameter 180' apart. It looks like a small balance weight, or a flange that's removed over half its' circumference. The sensor sees steel appear near to it, then disappear. The sensor signal will be a spike in one direction when it sees step-up in dia and steel appears, other direction when it sees step-down in dia.

So, if the collected wisdom turns out to be tosh but the sensor isn't fried then the signal will be wrong by 180' camshaft rotation.

Oh, did you perhaps get an engine harness on the donor motor? Guess not, or you'd have looked at that already.

More later...

I reposted Forker's post because I'm very grateful for his research, but this damned cam sensor is where I'm STILL stuck.

"Company service info doesn't recognise this level of detail for the LR model using K1.8. Rover is no more; aftermarket now supports all of those owners."

This probably explains how I was able to get the entire engine shipped from a Birmingham breaker to the United States for ~$750.00.

The sensor is described and sold as a hall effect sensor - 3 terminals.  That said, I've also seen it advertised on a few aftermarket sites as a magnetic sensor.

All hail the aftermarket . . .

Yeah, I know - my monkey, my circus.

Electronics guys - check me on this - I'm trying to avoid a brain-fart.

So the confusion is this - There is a magnet in the sensor itself, which I believe biases the output of the sensor. (:roll:)  I'm hypothesizing that when the ferrous cam lobe - a 180 degree half-moon arrangement described by Forker - passes the face of the sensor, this action causes a change in the flux field produced by the magnet built into the sensor housing, and produces a signal seen by the ecu.

Now if that's how it works, I should be able to apply voltage to the unit and see a signal output voltage (or change in output), by simply hooking it up to a meter and passing a piece of steel past the face of the sensor.

I'm seeing nothing.
 
The reason I'm sounding this out is that most of what I read about hall effect sensors used in automotive applications state that the magnet is separate from the housing.  I know that's how the Pertronix ignitions work, and all of the hall effect components that Holley sells uses this same method.

One other thing - I think both Forker and I have assumed that this unit is 12 volt, but I'm reading a lot of stuff about automotive hall effect sensors operating on a 5 V reference.  I can't find a confirming resource on this part, and my fear is that I may have blown this piece out. 

Any thoughts? 


"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Jack Gifford

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #7444 on: September 30, 2018, 12:10:47 AM »
... I should be able to apply voltage to the unit and see a signal output voltage (or change in output), by simply hooking it up to a meter and passing a piece of steel past the face of the sensor...I'm seeing nothing...
I know nothing about the unit you're dealing with. I only have a comment about a Hall effect device, which is basically just a Hall effect transistor with appropriate voltage regulation, etc. Its output is merely the collector of the transistor, which conducts to the emitter (grounded) when a magnetic field is present. Depending on the device, you might need to add a pull-up resistor (1k or so) between the output and +12v, in order for a voltmeter to display an output signal.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 12:14:13 AM by Jack Gifford »
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Offline Speed Limit 1000

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #7445 on: September 30, 2018, 11:48:35 AM »
https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=yhs-adk-adk_sbnt&hsimp=yhs-adk_sbnt&hspart=adk&p=How+to+troubleshout+Hall+effect+sensors#id=1&vid=84e531e661a9616991bfb703f9cc342e&action=click

You can get an cheep adapter to use your laptop as a scope

I hope this helps. Sometimes I really miss the test equipment we had when I was in the USAF.

John
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Offline jdincau

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #7446 on: September 30, 2018, 01:02:07 PM »
Here is the Hall effect sensor I am using with my AEM data recorder. AEM had me add a resistor as was suggested by Jack.
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Offline manta22

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #7447 on: September 30, 2018, 03:30:17 PM »
Chris;

According to that data sheet it can operate up to 24V so 12V wouldn't be a problem, except for putting a voltage on the transistor collector without a current-limiting pull-up resistor between it and +12V. You may have zapped the NPN transistor in the output.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline jacksoni

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #7448 on: October 01, 2018, 07:00:39 AM »
That is the Honeywell 101 sensor I use for crank and cam triggers. Simple. Dead reliable ( except for the time my damper got a little loose, wobbled, and smacked one.) recommend them.
Jack Iliff
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #7449 on: October 03, 2018, 04:18:25 PM »
The unit Holley sources is a Cherry item.

I went through a ridiculous dance with Holley trying to get dimensions for their unit.  All I needed were the physical dimensions - just like ANY OTHER AFTERMARKET CUSTOMIZABLE PIECE OF HARDWARE FROM ANY DAMNED SUPPLIER.

My question was:

"I'm looking for a dimensional print for the 554-117 hall effect sensor. Please e-mail me a pdf. Thanks."

The response was:

"Thanks for contacting Holley Technical Support.
No, unfortunately I cannot send you any internal engineering drawings as they are proprietary.
If you have any other questions or concerns feel free to reply by email or if you need immediate help call our Tech Line at 1-866-464-6553."

So I called 'em up again, and said, "Look, I'm not building a damned small block Chevy, this is a custom application, and I have no idea whether or not I can physically make this piece work without a print."

So he hims and haws around and says, "Do you know who makes this part?"

I said, "I just viewed a print of a similar unit made by Honeywell."

"Well, Cherry supplies us with these, so if you want to dig around on their site, perhaps you'll see something that looks familiar".

And I did.

And I found it, along with a print.

And then I found a supplier other than Holley - at about 30% of what Holley wanted to charge.

Here's the deal - I'll pay for good service - but I'll take the deep discount for disservice.

Holley just left $70.00 on the table.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline WOODY@DDLLC

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #7450 on: October 03, 2018, 04:53:18 PM »
Chris, sometimes life can be so sweet! Think how much mead you can buy with $70!  :-o :-D  :cheers:
And now hundreds of other people can get a similar deal!!  :evil: :cheers:
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #7451 on: October 08, 2018, 09:06:44 AM »
Hall effect sensor arrived.  Location is the same as the stock piece, as was the general shape, but it required a few mods to fit it.

The new unit extends about 3/32" deeper than the original, so proper measurements to achieve a .020 -.040 gap were required.

I picked up a piece of .016 copper sheet (non - ferrous) and created a stack of washer/shims to locate the sensor the proper distance from the signal lobe.

I need to confirm pin orientation from the ECU, so I'll need to pull the harness tonight and address that aspect.

2018100795182644 by Chris Conrad, on Flickr

This has been frustrating - I just want the damned thing to start.  These last 3 months have just taken the sap out of me, but my heart really goes out to the racers who made it out to World Finals, put down a number of really solid qualifying runs, got into impound, and came back the next day to a rain-out.

For all of my whining, THAT is a REAL kick in the slats.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #7452 on: October 08, 2018, 02:23:20 PM »
Come on Chris!! I go the tea bags in my  hand we need some HOT WATER!!!!

Rex
Rex

Not much matters and the rest doesn't matter at all.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #7453 on: October 08, 2018, 03:05:03 PM »
Theses engines got the nickname "kettle" because of their propensity to boil over.  :wink:

But that hasn't been an issue so far . . .  :|
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 03:25:22 PM by Milwaukee Midget »
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #7454 on: October 08, 2018, 03:24:41 PM »
Just think of all the MEAD you can buy because you could not sort this out in time to go   :-D  :cheers:
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