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Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 2240533 times)

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Offline jacksoni

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6855 on: February 26, 2018, 08:05:26 PM »
Want to echo Bob's comments about Calvin. He made my header. He is a real artist. A point Bob made about port sizes is one that Calvin makes over and over. Vast majority of heads have exhaust ports too big and putting a big pipe on it right off the head or enlarging the port opening to match a tube size is bad. For something he is not familiar with he does use Burns Stainless recommendations to help with some numbers. The sizes Mark suggested sound right too.
Jack Iliff
 G/BGS-250.235 1987
 G/GC- 176.245  2018
 G/GMS-182.144 2019

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6856 on: February 26, 2018, 09:04:17 PM »
Part of my thought process was based on the PipeMax numbers I ran.  Mark and I talked about that today.

What I know about headers is this -

They tend to leak, and they usually rust.  That's what happened on my '66 Cyclone, my '65 F-100, and my '67 Barracuda.

We're talking stainless for this, so rust shouldn't be an issue.

So I'm all ears - the issue is quickly becoming fitment of a custom set. 

We'll probably be at a standstill on the engine in a couple of weeks - waiting for Saenz and Diamond (THAT sounds like a law firm), at which point I can figure out how to fit it.  Then build the header - Then bolt it all together - THEN dyno the engine.

"We were getting ready to perform a little The Old In-out" - Alex, A Clockwork Orange
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline hoffman900

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6857 on: February 27, 2018, 06:27:57 AM »
Chris,

I’ll post a some of Calvin’s thoughts when I get home from work, but it was pretty eye opening to see what amounted from a header that was almost exactly the same total length, same collector, same tailpipe, and pretty much the only thing that changed was between the head flange and the collector itself. There is a lot of power to be had there when done correctly. I pushed my friend to use Calvin, his resume is great, and when Calvin came back with sizes after looking at what Burns recommended, everyone said he was nuts. He even said he would build another header at no cost if it was a dud. It wasn’t.  :-D

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6858 on: February 27, 2018, 09:31:44 AM »
Thanks, guys.  

My biggest concern is that the clock is ticking, and while I don't want to do this twice, I do want to do it this August.

If we can do it right the first time - and that's the goal - I'm all over that.

But if it turns into the difference between running and not running, then I need to be looking at an expedient.

This all falls on me, and while the list isn't particularly long, it is exacting, and will require some serious focus.

Save commitments to a family function in March, my weekends will find me in the garage.

I'll be finishing up the fuel tank tonight, after which I've promised Mark a spreadsheet/checklist.  

Given his schedule, I can't thank Mark enough for the time and energy he's putting into this.  I get the sense that this engine is one he really wants to hang his hat on.  In the day-to-day world of small block Chevys and 5 liter Fords, I think this unlikely engine has the potential to make a statement, so it's important to me to give him the best options that time and the budget allows.

  
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 11:00:30 AM by Milwaukee Midget »
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline jacksoni

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6859 on: February 27, 2018, 10:41:17 AM »
Budget??Budget???That's what credit cards are for, buy now, pay much later. :evil: :evil: :cheers:
Jack Iliff
 G/BGS-250.235 1987
 G/GC- 176.245  2018
 G/GMS-182.144 2019

Offline desotoman

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6860 on: February 27, 2018, 02:38:20 PM »
And here is the flip side of the coin on headers.

Tom G.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azPKIjxmmdU

PS. While on burns stainless site I got hacked, so be careful. Maybe a coincidence maybe not.
The rational person lets verified facts form or modify his opinion.  The ideologue ignores verified facts which don't fit his preconceived opinions.

Asking questions is one's only way of getting answers.

Offline hoffman900

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6861 on: February 27, 2018, 04:05:40 PM »
And here is the flip side of the coin on headers.

Tom G.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azPKIjxmmdU

PS. While on burns stainless site I got hacked, so be careful. Maybe a coincidence maybe not.

That combination was so far off that the headers weren’t the restriction. You will NOT do that to something Elston, Pro Header, Weiss, etc build and not lose power.

But if people want to believe it, I don’t discourage them. Especially if they’re competing against of my friends.  :-)

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6862 on: February 28, 2018, 04:18:22 AM »
And here is the flip side of the coin on headers.

Tom G.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azPKIjxmmdU

PS. While on burns stainless site I got hacked, so be careful. Maybe a coincidence maybe not.

That combination was so far off that the headers weren’t the restriction. You will NOT do that to something Elston, Pro Header, Weiss, etc build and not lose power.

But if people want to believe it, I don’t discourage them. Especially if they’re competing against of my friends.  :-)


Uuhhmmm . . . . . .    I'm not sure what got "proved" here.

Except that:

A/   It was the wrong header to begin with,    (too large a cross section for the application)
2/   Low(er) compression engines are less sensitive to header tuning,    (like this is some "big secret")
d/   The number of "build geometry" combinations for lower bhp output SB Chevys is: endless.    And therefore, a variety of header choices could be made to work "acceptably".

    560 bhp/400 cu in  = 1.4 bhp/cu inch    meh . . . .          528.2 #/ft TQ  from 400 cu in = 199.1 psi bmep very good, but that's the "short" cam & the tunnel ram.


In very high specific output situations, header tuning is critical to producing the required bhp output.    Teams that I am aware of, paid Calvin a "lot" of money for in car and development headers.

They would not do that if his stuff did not work . . . . . .      Think about that for a moment . . . . . .


AND, finally, why don't they show the oil temperature for these runs?     The bhp differential depicted could easily be the result of hotter oil temperature.     Just askin' . . . . .

 :cheers:
Justsayin'boy
« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 04:28:13 AM by fordboy628 »
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6863 on: February 28, 2018, 08:21:20 AM »
Finished up the tank last night.  I'll check it for leaks tonight, but I expect I should have it in place and ready to plumb this weekend.

Pistons are set for production.
piston top by Chris Conrad, on Flickr
piston cross section by Chris Conrad, on Flickr
piston bottom by Chris Conrad, on Flickr 
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Jack Gifford

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6864 on: March 01, 2018, 12:41:38 AM »
I like the crown thickness and the generous distance down to the top ring groove. Appears adequate for phase II- forced induction... 8-)
M/T Pontiac hemi guru (or does guru status expire after 30 years?)

Offline jacksoni

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6865 on: March 01, 2018, 05:54:14 AM »
I though that sort of bevel at the periphery of the piston top went out long time ago. Just makes more crevice volume. Break the edge ,yes, but big bevel no? Mark want to weigh in on this?  I like that the rest of the normal sharp edges- valve pockets etc- appear already smoothed out. Reduces prep time a lot.
Jack Iliff
 G/BGS-250.235 1987
 G/GC- 176.245  2018
 G/GMS-182.144 2019

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6866 on: March 01, 2018, 06:11:59 AM »

I like the crown thickness and the generous distance down to the top ring groove. Appears adequate for phase II- forced induction... 8-)


Who knows where this path will ultimately lead? ?     But, for now at least, the focus is going to remain N/A, with a redirected assault on the midget's own I/GT record.   And, additionally, we want to invite and see on the salt, other potential I/GT competitors.   Ideally they should dust off their equipment and prepare for renewed interest in one of the more "affordable" classes.

Avid followers of this thinly disguised treatise on craft beer, Midwest eateries, bitching about weather, poorly performing sports teams, . . . . . and sometimes . . . . . racing, will be aware that one of the shortcomings of the former powerplant, ie: the "Grenade", was that the original piston was designed for "maximum lightness".    While a seemingly good idea initially, the thin section of the piston crown, hence the low mass, resulted in a piston crown that prevented the development of higher static C/R coupled with additional valve lift @ overlap.    This doomed the output to the region of 180/185 psi bmep.    And while this result was "respectable output", it was by no means "highly developed", although, in the finish, it got the job done.    So, at the end of willing investment in 1930's tractor "technology", some investments needed to be curtailed so the project could jump headlong into the 1980's . . . . . . . . . .

So the bottom line became that compromises of this nature were not going to follow us from the 1930's into:   The new Millennium of MG Midget Racing! ! !       or, whatever you want to call it . . . . . .

What's that Honey?    OH? ?    The MM blog? ?     I thought we were writing an "Epic Screenplay"       What do you mean Steven doesn't want to but the rights? ?        Da**! ! !  Another 5 years of my life wasted . . . . . . .

 :dhorse:  :dhorse:  :dhorse:
Frustratedauthorboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6867 on: March 01, 2018, 06:28:32 AM »

I though that sort of bevel at the periphery of the piston top went out long time ago. Just makes more crevice volume. Break the edge ,yes, but big bevel no? Mark want to weigh in on this?  I like that the rest of the normal sharp edges- valve pockets etc- appear already smoothed out. Reduces prep time a lot.


I'm viewing the drawing as a radius, not a bevel.    It's a trade off, crevice volume Vs reduced tendency to detonation, and prep time.    My experience is that "trapped crevice volume" can react and burn "unpredictably".     I'll take the trade in view of giving rising combustion pressure a path toward easier pressurization of the top ring, even though the pistons will have vertical gas ports.

One of the "issues" with the Rover head is the "deep" 4V chamber when compared to say a Cosworth BD?, or a Cosworth DF?, or one of the ubiquitous 4V "rice grinders".    It requires a relatively tall "dome" for very high static C/R with a small displacement engine.

"Packaging is: Everything".     K. Duckworth

Still true.    We just have to live with it.    And compared to the "tractor engine"  I'm OK with it.     'Cause I'm pretty sure this one will be "better" . . . . . . .

 :dhorse:  :dhorse:  :dhorse:
Tractorfreeboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6868 on: March 01, 2018, 08:55:26 AM »
Okay, the fuel tank turret does not leak, nor does the new inlet, so "yay" on that.

The pump pumps - drained out 2 gallons of water in about a minute.

I will need to modestly "relieve" the trunk floor - ie, find a torch and swing a #2 mall over my head while on a creeper under the car.

Spare jack stands will be the order of the day.

But that day won't be today, because Mrs. Midget and I are celebrating her 26th birthday again.

We've been doing this every 26 years.

It's a rare spouse that will put up with an LSR racer whose idea of a summer get-away is spending a week in 90 degree weather in a desert, with the only respite being a frontage road lined with pawn shops and casinos bereft of non-carnivorous buffets.

I'd be woefully remiss if I didn't at least take her to dinner and a movie tonight.

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline jacksoni

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6869 on: March 01, 2018, 09:05:14 AM »
Why don't you put the jackstand under the trunk floor and drop the car on it instead of on you? :roll: :roll: :evil: :evil: :cheers: :cheers:
Jack Iliff
 G/BGS-250.235 1987
 G/GC- 176.245  2018
 G/GMS-182.144 2019