Landracing Forum Home
October 21, 2018, 01:29:58 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News:
BACK TO LANDRACING.COM HOMEPAGE
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  


(Note: Donations are not tax deductible)







Live Audio Streaming and Archives of Past Events
Next Live Event: TBD
Pages: 1 ... 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 [454] 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 ... 499   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 1651365 times)
0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.
fordboy628
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Location: Koozebane
Posts: 2151


GONE FISHIN' . . .




Ignore
« Reply #6795 on: February 10, 2018, 06:30:34 AM »


Regarding rod design---

Probably not an issue, but has anyone checked for rod-to-cylinder liner skirt clearance?    Not at this point, but it will get done.   With the de-stroking, there is reduced lateral displacement of the rod, which allows for a larger beam width.    Since the piston travel will also be reduced, the bottom of the cylinder sleeve could also be notched for clearance.    But this is a valid concern, to which we will pay attention.


Also, how is it that ARP L19 bolt material got specified?  Having gone to a pretty beefy 3/8” bolt, is there really a need for this quite high-strength and less ductile material which has a propensity for suffering from hydrogen embrittlement?  Seems like one of the lower grades would be perfectly adequate and less worrisome from that aspect.  Also presumably less expensive.   Probably Saenz's default choice, as Chris suggested.   I agree with you that ARP 2000 would be a satisfactory selection.    Using a cheaper, less sensitive material was my point in specifying the larger size.    I'm going on the record for preferring ARP 2000 for this application, but it's not my wallet and I'm not "driving the train".

For that matter, given the hardnesses quoted for the rod material, and if the print is being revised, it might be good to get a detail of the bolt head seating area and have generous radii there.  (Granted, this thing isn’t going to Le Mans).    I agree that the print needs more details.

Are they going to be shot peened?      Well, presumably.   I think the rods for the "Grenade" were shot peened.     BUT, the process should be specified.    If I had drawn the print, it would be specified.

Personal thought on oil holes.  To me, the dual underneath holes just provide great exhaust passages for the oil at the highest loaded location.    I tend to agree, but I have only seen evidence of this on very highly loaded parts, blown, fuel or nitrous, etc; narrow pin end rod widths; and high vacuum dry sumps where oiling is diminished.    I spend a lot of time on tear downs looking at a lot of things that tend to get ignored by others.    You can learn a lot from how the parts look and measure up.    Having said all that, I'm pretty sure the K will not be that highly stressed.    And the K is getting a single top oil hole, according to the print.


IO,

Thanks again for all your insight and advice.    It is obvious that you know your stuff.    Care to reveal your day job?

And my apologies for embedding answers into your text.   I'm still a slow and crappy typist . . . . .

 cheers
F/b
Logged

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein
fordboy628
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Location: Koozebane
Posts: 2151


GONE FISHIN' . . .




Ignore
« Reply #6796 on: February 10, 2018, 06:41:02 AM »


The B/S ratio and photos indicate the cylinders provide a confined area for oil mist access to a hole on the top of the rod for small end lubrication.  What about drilling two holes from the troughs on the sided of the rod up to the small end bearing?  It would be similar to what Carillo does on the front and the back but on the sides.

The concern is the oil slung off of the crank webs will not get up into those narrow cylinders in enough quantity to do the job.  Oil crawling up the rod might be a big help.


Bo,

The rod side clearance spec is .009"/.011"   The oil pressure is going to be around 55/65 psi.     It is a "wet" sump, although the sump is deep and separated from the rotating mass.     I'm thinking that it is going to be "raining" oil in the upper crankcase.     But we will be checking everything carefully, and will add specific oiling if the tear down inspection process shows that it is needed.

 cheers
F/b
Logged

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein
fordboy628
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Location: Koozebane
Posts: 2151


GONE FISHIN' . . .




Ignore
« Reply #6797 on: February 10, 2018, 06:47:47 AM »


Also, how is it that ARP L19 bolt material got specified? 

Saenz's "default" bolt. 

I could downgrade it, but I've worked with them before, and I have already made the mistakes - I did overstretch the first set on the Grenade and was oblivious to the handling issues.

But now I've got latex gloves, patience and experience, and they'll be fine.  I don't know that the potential savings of a 2000 ARP over the L19 is worth changing up the order.

If I do it right this time, I should only have to handle them once.


midget,

Don't be so certain that you will only torque them once.     And if it was me, I would request ARP 2000 bolts, at the reduced cost.    They might be unwilling to lower the material spec, but who knows until you ask.     If you don't want to keep pestering them, well OK, your call.

 cheers
F/b
Logged

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein
fordboy628
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Location: Koozebane
Posts: 2151


GONE FISHIN' . . .




Ignore
« Reply #6798 on: February 10, 2018, 06:52:02 AM »

midget,


Photos of the piston rings:






 cheers
F/b
Logged

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein
Milwaukee Midget
Global Moderator
Hero Member
***
Offline Offline

Age: 58
Location: Beerhaven, Wisconsin
Posts: 6417


Former Bonneville I/GT record holder - 122.539 mph


WWW
« Reply #6799 on: February 10, 2018, 10:04:57 AM »


Don't be so certain that you will only torque them once.     And if it was me, I would request ARP 2000 bolts, at the reduced cost.    They might be unwilling to lower the material spec, but who knows until you ask.     If you don't want to keep pestering them, well OK, your call.

 cheers
F/b


"I make no contention of the fact that I'm basically lazy." - Unknown author  wink

Do the little things matter?  

Is a top shelf upgraded bolt designed to the specs of the rod manufacturer going to effect power, speed or dependability in a negative fashion?  

I'm certainly not trying to spend more than necessary, but unless there's a compelling reason not to use the bolts recommended by the rod manufacturer, I think we should proceed with the L19s.



Logged

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  rolleyes

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!
Milwaukee Midget
Global Moderator
Hero Member
***
Offline Offline

Age: 58
Location: Beerhaven, Wisconsin
Posts: 6417


Former Bonneville I/GT record holder - 122.539 mph


WWW
« Reply #6800 on: February 10, 2018, 10:50:37 AM »

Continued -

I dug up the specs for the Saenz rods out of the Grenade.

When I tore down the motor after 2013, I checked the length on the L19s.  These were 5/16 ARPs, supplied by Saenz.

They were all over the map.

Saenz recommended tightening to stretch in 3 progressive steps,

.0, .0059, .0066.

I, of course, had simply pregressively tightened the original set of bolts in 10 lb. increments, up to the recommended maximum of 30 Ft/Lbs.

So I ordered the replacements.  They were not available directly from ARP, so I ordered them from Saenz.

With Mark's encouragement - ie insistance - I followed the "torque to stretch" method prescribed by Saenz.

So having been through the "cost of an education" on these particular fasteners, I'm not worried about maladies moving forward.  I'm just going to carefully follow the instructions.


Logged

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  rolleyes

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!
Milwaukee Midget
Global Moderator
Hero Member
***
Offline Offline

Age: 58
Location: Beerhaven, Wisconsin
Posts: 6417


Former Bonneville I/GT record holder - 122.539 mph


WWW
« Reply #6801 on: February 10, 2018, 11:21:43 AM »

Oh, and I placed the order for the rod bearings with APT.  Should have delivery info Monday.
Logged

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  rolleyes

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!
fordboy628
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Location: Koozebane
Posts: 2151


GONE FISHIN' . . .




Ignore
« Reply #6802 on: February 11, 2018, 09:03:37 AM »

How it's done in Britain . . . . . . . .


midget, et all,

Perhaps some reader with better internet searching skills can find a copy of this article somewhere:

Race Engine Technology, issue 36, February 2009

Dossier: EDL K2000 - EDL doesn’t only do pure race engines – Tom Sharp finds out how it tackled the challenge of a production-based Super 2000 I4


Small decoding:

A/    EDL, Engine Developments Limited, that would be John Judd & company . . . . .

2/    K2000,   Their build of a stretched Rover K16, out to 1997 cc's! !

d/    Reliably producing 285 bhp . . . . .  For Touring Cars, Rally Cars and other applications.


UUhhmm, scaled down to 994 cc's, that would be:    142.5 bhp!   OR, thereabouts . . . . . .

Interested parties could order a back issue from the publisher:

https://www.highpowermedia.com/p/1114/race_engine_technology_-_issue_036

£18 + shipping    Although their back issues go on sale from time to time.    I think they offer a discount on back issues to current subscribers.


 cheers
F/b
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 01:51:43 PM by fordboy628 » Logged

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein
jacksoni
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 74
Location: Annapolis, Maryland
Posts: 1088




Ignore
« Reply #6803 on: February 11, 2018, 09:30:46 AM »

Where is Woody? He might have it.

F/B- do you know how much detail they went into on the build?
Logged

Jack Iliff
 G/BGS-250.235 1987
 G/GC- 169.741  2009
 G/GMS-178.835 2010
WOODY@DDLLC
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Age: 73
Location: Morrow, OH 15 minutes from Mike Brown!
Posts: 1269


ECTA made it to AR-Kansas!


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #6804 on: February 11, 2018, 09:52:05 AM »

Sorry, don't have #36 but will get it next time back issues are on sale.
BTW: Issues 35~38 have these interesting 'free' articles: http://www.profblairandassociates.com/RET_Articles.html
At SEMA and PRI they usually have back issues on sale for $10~15 each.
Logged

All models are wrong, but some are useful! G.E. Box (1967) www.designdreams.biz
Milwaukee Midget
Global Moderator
Hero Member
***
Offline Offline

Age: 58
Location: Beerhaven, Wisconsin
Posts: 6417


Former Bonneville I/GT record holder - 122.539 mph


WWW
« Reply #6805 on: February 11, 2018, 10:25:56 AM »

A blurb on the aforementioned engine -

http://www.xpowerforums.com/K2000_Judd.htm

Logged

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  rolleyes

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!
fordboy628
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Location: Koozebane
Posts: 2151


GONE FISHIN' . . .




Ignore
« Reply #6806 on: February 11, 2018, 10:38:51 AM »

How it's done in Britain . . . . . . . .  part 2


Well actually, I have issue 36.    Just received it in a "hamper buy".    I've been adding to my collection, to fill out my back issues, for a while now.

I was able to give the article a quick skim, and there are lots of "basic build details", as is usual in RET.

I plan to give the article a more thorough read through and I'll put anything pertinent up on midget's build diary, at some point in the near future.

What I am NOT going to do is: to dismember the issue so it can be scanned and posted up here.


RET, as a reference source, is, in my opinion, way undervalued.    BUT, I recognize that to make use of resources such as this, an individual must be:

A/    Literate,
2/    Intuitive,
d/    Deductive.

And since INTJ personality types are exceedingly rare, less than 1.5% of the population, well, that tells you everything you need to know.

 Dead Horse  Dead Horse  Dead Horse
F/b
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 10:42:40 AM by fordboy628 » Logged

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein
fordboy628
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Location: Koozebane
Posts: 2151


GONE FISHIN' . . .




Ignore
« Reply #6807 on: February 15, 2018, 06:13:28 AM »

midget,

Your Valentine's Day present from Diamond Pistons:

Yesterday AM I got an email confirming the delivery of the chamber "plug" I cast.   This one, made from their material, is usable.  Their designer reports that the approval print is nearly finished.    He will email it to me for final approval when completed.   He anticipates the print will be done by Friday/Monday.     Completion and delivery in approximately 3/4 weeks.

Further, we discussed the final technical details of the piston's design.    I made some decisions about design, coatings and other details.    Still under the maximum cost estimate.   I'll put up the final detailed list when I have more time for slow typing.

And, finally, Diamond is excited to be working on another Bonneville related project that has a record of prior success.     The exact phrase used was:   "We hear a LOT about what people are intending to do.    Mostly, we hear nothing back, in terms of credible results.     We get excited when we have an opportunity to provide our technology to programs that have ALREADY been successful, because we know that setting ANY record is not easy.    If it was easy, everybody would be doing it."   (sic  setting records)

Let's not f'up this relationship . . . . .

 cheers
F/b
Logged

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein
fordboy628
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Location: Koozebane
Posts: 2151


GONE FISHIN' . . .




Ignore
« Reply #6808 on: February 15, 2018, 06:36:41 AM »

My Valentine's Day present for the BMC 'A' series lovers . . . . . . .


For those of you BMC lovers who are out there, forlorn about the fact that midget has discarded the "Grenade" and the 'A' series as a power source . . . . .

I give you renewed hope for usage of the engine in a contemporary situation.   Aaron Kelley of AVP (builder of the BMC 'A' that won the 2014 SCCA F/Production National Championship) has spent R&D time to produce an engine specifically for SCCA GT/L

165 bhp @ 8500 rpm from 80.23 cubic inches! ! !

Here is the link to my technical thread on the Vintage Racing Rules Forum, where Aaron has posted some technical details about that engine:

http://www.vintageracerules.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/14439/Re:_RACING_ENGINES,_A_TECHNICA#Post14439

The link starts where Aaron has posted some photos of his development engine on his dyno.   The dyno sheet is posted further down the page.


"See Virginia, there really is a Santa Claus, er, St. Valentine, er, BMC maven, er, ? ? ? ? ? ?"

 cheers cheers cheers
Sillyrabbitboy
Logged

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein
Milwaukee Midget
Global Moderator
Hero Member
***
Offline Offline

Age: 58
Location: Beerhaven, Wisconsin
Posts: 6417


Former Bonneville I/GT record holder - 122.539 mph


WWW
« Reply #6809 on: February 15, 2018, 10:19:21 AM »

What's really stunning about this is that he's getting what is probably NASCAR NA power-per-cubic inch numbers out of a 65 year old head design and a three main crank.

And while NASCAR utilizes restrictor plates, the A-Series BMC head IS a restrictor plate!
Logged

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  rolleyes

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!
Pages: 1 ... 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 [454] 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 ... 499   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
Simple Audio Video Embedder
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!


Google visited last this page July 12, 2018, 11:33:42 AM