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Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 1891346 times)

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Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6660 on: January 20, 2018, 03:29:18 PM »

Maybe this is a silly question, but why do you need Billet pistons?

Can't you find a motorcycle forging, or other forging that would work in your bore size?

Tom G.

Hi Tom,

Well the K doesn't NEED a billet piston, a forging would be fine.

The problem is that the original plan was to use Wossner, since they are European based, and had an offering for the 4v K engine.    The idea was that their normal part could be "customized" to suit Chris's requirements.    And John Noonan, the Wossner rep, had an interest in seeing that it would possibly get done in an expedited fashion.

And, as everybody who pays attention on this board knows, John was injured last year, and needs to spend his time on his recovery.    Whoever is covering for John at Wossner, is quoting a long delivery period (13 weeks) from their European plant.

So, investigation has begun on manufacturers who can provide what is needed on a faster basis.    Diamond can produce a part quickly, but only from a billet.   No suitable forging for 75.5 mm bore diameter.

Other suppliers perhaps being considered are JE, CP, Venolia, etc in the U.S.     I'm not sure if Chris has contacted Omega, Accralite, or others in the UK

If any reader out there has a handle on who could provide parts quickly, I'm sure Chris wants to know about them.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

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Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6661 on: January 20, 2018, 03:40:44 PM »

Unlike last time, I want to leave a little extra meat on the piston tops, just in case we need to do something unforseen.


YES, having a plan that would allow some "deepening" of the valve notches, would be a better idea than going for maximum lightening without having the valve to piston clearance worked out beforehand.

Because of the "unusual" geometry concerns of this build, cam timing will probably again be "unique".    My intention is to maximize combustion pressure at the highest safe level, regardless of whatever cam timing that requires . . . .

 :cheers:
Fordboy
I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6662 on: January 20, 2018, 03:59:22 PM »
midget,

Quote from Diamond for a set of 4 pistons & pins, at cost:

75.5 mm bore dia; 30 mm comp ht.; 16 mm pin dia.

Fully machined billet only, grooved to suit rings supplied.
pins H11 custom only


No ring pack in quote.  You need to supply

   $807.00
+$250.00    for scanning combustion chamber mold
+  shipping, etc.

Probably looking @ $1100 total cost and you will need to either throw them a "bone" or order yourself.    Not sure what price you might get quoted as an individual buying direct.

Good news is:  delivery in 3-1/2 weeks or so plus time in shipment.

 :cheers:
F/b

midget,

I'm not sure whether this quote specified any coatings or max lightening or anything else.

I'll work on getting that information today.

 :cheers:
F/b

midget,

OK, the information on the piston quote is:

NO coatings included,

NO gas porting included,

Piston pin diameter, length, and retention: TBD,

Grooving for ring pack: TBD, customer to select and/or supply rings.   They should have at least the dimensions for the rings, so that the grooves are correct.    Better to have the rings, in hand though.

Fully machined internally, although maximum lightening NOT specified.

Since the piston would be fully machined internally, thickness under the valve notch areas could be specified.


Len is off to Vegas for the next few days.   He should be back @ T&T on Thursday, so that would be the soonest any order could be placed.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline desotoman

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6663 on: January 20, 2018, 04:03:39 PM »

Maybe this is a silly question, but why do you need Billet pistons?

Can't you find a motorcycle forging, or other forging that would work in your bore size?

Tom G.

Hi Tom,

Well the K doesn't NEED a billet piston, a forging would be fine.

The problem is that the original plan was to use Wossner, since they are European based, and had an offering for the 4v K engine.    The idea was that their normal part could be "customized" to suit Chris's requirements.    And John Noonan, the Wossner rep, had an interest in seeing that it would possibly get done in an expedited fashion.

And, as everybody who pays attention on this board knows, John was injured last year, and needs to spend his time on his recovery.    Whoever is covering for John at Wossner, is quoting a long delivery period (13 weeks) from their European plant.

So, investigation has begun on manufacturers who can provide what is needed on a faster basis.    Diamond can produce a part quickly, but only from a billet.   No suitable forging for 75.5 mm bore diameter.

Other suppliers perhaps being considered are JE, CP, Venolia, etc in the U.S.     I'm not sure if Chris has contacted Omega, Accralite, or others in the UK

If any reader out there has a handle on who could provide parts quickly, I'm sure Chris wants to know about them.

 :cheers:
Fordboy

Thanks Fordboy,

For general information I just now went through the whole CP-Carrillo catalogue looking for some connecting rods for my project and I did notice that they had some pistons in your bore size that maybe can be modified. One was a D16A6 Acura #SC7126, or Toyota 1NZFE #SC7848. I don't know if they will work but maybe worth a call or look. http://www.cp-carrillo.com/

Tom G.
Asking questions is one's only way of getting answers. As a young boy I was always taught that there is no such thing as a stupid question. It suggests that the quest for knowledge includes failure, and that just because one person may know less than others they should not be afraid to ask rather than pretend they already know. In many cases multiple people may not know but are too afraid to ask the "stupid question"; the one who asks the question may in fact be doing a service to those around them.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6664 on: January 20, 2018, 04:07:31 PM »
As I haven't heard back from Eric at Wossner, and with the clock ticking, I'm looking to go billet and get this aspect behind us.

This is the cost of procrastination.  I can blame some of this on the block prep time, but I should have placed this order the day it arrived back here in Beerhaven.

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6665 on: January 20, 2018, 06:46:40 PM »
Lemony midget, and the Unfortunate Series of Events . . . . . . . .


Well boys and girls, before descending into a discussion about rod length/ stroke ratio, some background might be in order . . . .


Astute readers of this Build Diary may have recognized that both of Mr. midget's engine projects have ventured into the realm of "high" rod length/stroke ratio.

Why is this happening to him?   Well, there is an explanation, and possibly a good reason.


Let's start at the beginning . . . . .

In the beginning, the I/GT project required a 1 liter power source.   And, after doing a bit of research, the midget became aware that BMC had already created his dream engine:  the XSP Formula Junior engine, based on the 970 cc Cooper S.    A big bore, large valve, short stroke, dry sumped racing engine.    Only problem was, there were very few produced, even fewer remaining, and therefore: EXPENSIVE.    Even the base blocks, a 970 Cooper S or a 1071 Cooper S, even the ones without the dry sump provision, were way overpriced.    Based on the demand for replica XSP's prepared for vintage racing.

So, what to do?    Well, 1275 Spridget blocks shared the same big bore and they were relatively plentiful and cheap to boot.    So it was affordability that determined the direction that the build took.    Only problem?    1275 blocks were TALLER than the 970 S and 1071 S blocks.  Same height as the 1275 S blocks in fact.    Out of the necessity of cramming the 1275 stroke into the big bore block, there was a need to raise the deck height of the 970/1071 series.    No problem at the larger displacement, but when used for a short stroke 1000 cc engine, an even longer rod was required to connect the bits, as it were.

OK, so eventually, the engine got developed enough for Lemony midget to spend quality time in "Warnerville".   Twice, in fact, thereby fulfilling one of midget's fantasies, one of the ones that did not include Mrs. midget, Rolling Stones cover bands, cats and/or Stormy Daniels . . . .


Now, jumping ahead to the "current permutation" of power plant, a decision was made to embrace 1980's technology as a replacement for 1930's tech.    Undoubtedly, a good decision, as the performance potential for the venerable 'A' series could never hope to rival the performance potential of a short stroke 4 valve DOHC engine.     Pure 4 valve racing engines of automotive and motorcycle constructors were extremely powerful.

Yet again, the chosen manufacturer, Rover, had the "dream engine".   The 1100cc K16 variant.    Only used in the "sportiest" version of the small cars, most of which used the 2v K8's.    Several friends in the UK advised that although Rover had indeed produced the 1100 K16, no one had ever seen one, or could procure one.   So, what to do?    The time honored process.    Destroke one of the more common, cheaper, and larger K16 engines.    This idea had the merit of being able to use the head designed for the larger engine, at a lower level of modification, to support the higher revving smaller displacement engine.    Snap!!    Problem solved!!    Availability and affordability, both at the same time . . . . .

EXCEPT, the old de-stroking bugaboo resurfaced, only this time with the added complications of an external belt cam drive.    What can be done?   Well, not all that much really.   We can do some "fiddling" with rod length, but not enough to "dramatically" reduce the rod/stroke ratio.    We know for certain the 1400/1600/1800 variants all use the same block height.    The variations in rod/stroke ratio do not affect those engines, but of course, their output level is much lower.    And, as far as we know, even the 1100cc K uses the same block height, giving an even higher R/S ratio.     So does it matter?    Will it affect this build?    I guess we'll see . . . . .


And so, the final thought has to be an homage to one of the greatest engine designers of the 20th, or any other century . . . . .

"Packaging, is everything."   K. Duckworth

The point being that even the very best engineers and designers are constrained when using the parts produced by others, for purposes not remotely akin to what your bright idea involves.

 :cheers:
Duckworthdiscipleboy
I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6666 on: January 20, 2018, 06:48:56 PM »
I just did this one so I would be reply #6666! !

Not the devil.    But close!

 :cheers:
Hereticboy
I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6667 on: January 21, 2018, 12:50:50 AM »
With the long rods the ghost of Smokey Yunick will be giving you the big thumbs up!  :-D :-D :-D

Pete

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6668 on: January 21, 2018, 10:45:22 AM »
With the long rods the ghost of Smokey Yunick will be giving you the big thumbs up!  :-D :-D :-D

Pete

I'd send his estate the bill, but I'm reasonably certain Smokey Yunick gleaned through the rulebook and figured out a way to take it with him.

 :wink:
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6669 on: January 23, 2018, 06:42:51 AM »
Cooling System Update:

midget,

Water outlet arrived.     1-1/4 hose end by 3/4 NPT




Should work fine mated up to an alloy plate bolted to the cylinder head in the stock location, which is at the upper rear of the cylinder head in this photo . . . . . . .




The outlet flange will need to be fitted to the new stainless steel header flange, shown in this close up photo.




No adaptor plate, but you can get the idea.




From here, a 90 degree 1-1/4 hose will get the water pointed at the upper radiator inlet.   Short sections of high temp hoses coupled with beaded alloy 1-1/4 tubing is the plan.   The alloy radiator with 1-1/4 beaded connections will work marvelously.    Probably have too much cooling . . . . . .




The water inlet is going to be a little trickier since the in car installation requires a 180 degree rotation to align with the radiator outlet.   A similar setup mated to a 180 degree 1-1/4 ID hose will get the job done.


I'm sketching a cooling system schematic for you.    It will include a "pressure bleed circuit", a 1 quart + expansion/bleed tank, a 24# (or higher ??) pressure cap and a 1 quart coolant recovery system/tank.    I'll post it when I get some "free time".    I want the high pressure because of the altitude.    BTW, probably NO THERMOSTAT on this deal.    Machined, venturi style outlet restrictor only.    Coolant temp and pressure are things we need to data log.

Busy week for us both.   Not sure when I might get my next post up.

TTFN

 :cheers:
Fabricationboy


edited to replace lost photo path and to add additional photos.
 :cheers:
F/b     2/13/18 @ 11:16
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 11:18:41 AM by fordboy628 »
I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6670 on: January 23, 2018, 08:20:51 AM »
Cooling System Update:

midget,

Water outlet arrived.



1-1/4 hose end by 3/4 NPT

 :cheers:
Fabricationboy

Ooooh - S T Y L I S H !

Second photo did not come through on the diary . . .  :?

Heads up - both inlet and outlet on the radiator will be at the bottom, regardless of whether I replace or refurbish the existing radiator.


The outlet flange will need to be fitted to the new stainless steel header flange, not shown in this photo. 

No way to make a separate outlet plate that's not integrated with the header flange?  If I bottom out the exhaust, I see a possibility of a watery, steamy mess, and a hot exhaust flange probably won't hold up to RTV.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6671 on: January 23, 2018, 09:25:48 AM »

Ooooh - S T Y L I S H !

Second photo did not come through on the diary . . .  :?

No way to make a separate outlet plate that's not integrated with the header flange?  If I bottom out the exhaust, I see a possibility of a watery, steamy mess, and a hot exhaust flange probably won't hold up to RTV.


UUhhh, yeah, that's what I was going for:  STYLE! !    :roll:


On the second photo, I can see it fine, whether logged in, or as a guest.    Besides, why can't you guys read my mind? ? ? ? ?   :?   :?



AAnnndddd, if you recall:   The exhaust flange IS a separate SS piece.    Do you recall that it got a small relief to give clearance to the water outlet area?     The water outlet WILL BE a separate aluminum piece, when fabricated.    I also think it would be a BAD idea to have one integrated flange for both the exhaust and the coolant . . . . . .  :|


I know you are busy at work, but this lack of focus and recall about important matters, like your race car, is causing me a bit of concern.

I suspect you have been fantasizing too much about "other concerns", perhaps the dwindling contents of your "Kegerator" . . . . . .  and/or liquor cabinet . . . . . .   :|


 :cheers:  :dhorse:  :cheers:
FullKegeratorboy
I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6672 on: January 23, 2018, 09:36:01 AM »
Yeah - I've been a bad boy.

I think my favorite line in all of racing is Wayno telling his numerous employers, "I've quit better jobs than THIS to go racing!"

 :-D

Lackoffocusmidget

By the way, did I mention my computer repair guy's name is "Lucas"?    :roll:
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Elmo Rodge

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6673 on: January 23, 2018, 09:49:53 AM »
Chris, I just quit the best job I ever had for that very reason.  :-D  :cheers:
Wayno

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6674 on: January 23, 2018, 09:54:24 AM »
Chris, I just quit the best job I ever had for that very reason.  :-D  :cheers:
Wayno

And they say, "Quitters never win" . . .

Whatthehelldotheyknow?  :cheers:
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!