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Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 1942650 times)

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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6525 on: December 31, 2017, 09:46:43 AM »
The flange bolt pattern in Posts 1851 and 1852 reminds me of any work on a Meridan built Triumph.  They made minor detail changes frequently to parts.  Often in midstream of a year's production run.  The parts look similar before and after the little detail changes.  Sometimes it is a metallurgy change and both parts look identical.

This drives folks crazy.  The institutional memory of the "when, why, and what" of the modifications is lost from the institutional knowledge on both the buyer, seller, and specialty part manufacturer.

The best defense seems to be a good parts book for the OEM motor.  They list the different part numbers and the serial numbers of the vehicle when any changes were made.  This gives a good basis of discussion when ordering things.

Folks now are making replacement parts from sand cast or scanned and milled molds based on an original part.  They are not taking into account cooling shrinkage when the new casting cools.  The part is too small and the bolt patterns are off.  This is pretty common for pattern parts for old British bikes.    

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6526 on: December 31, 2017, 10:00:14 AM »
Send Lawyers, guns and money . . . . .

RIP Warren . . . .

¡Salud!
MIboy

Guns?  There's a reason I don't own one - the damned thing would be empty before I got it home . . .

Check.


Short conversation overheard somewhere in the "flatlands" . . . . .

Elderly college graduate:  "I've given up trying to 'cure' 'stupid'."

Former Gunnery Sgt:   "The only way requires guns."

Ecg:   "There aren't enough bullets in the world."

Fgs:   "I'm willing to give it a try."



Resulting in: "The dilemma of the 21st Century."


I can't wait for the coming "oxygen shortage" . . . . .

 :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
Timelimitedboy
I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6527 on: December 31, 2017, 10:07:25 AM »
The flange bolt pattern in Posts 1851 and 1852 reminds me of any work on a Meridan built Triumph.  They made minor detail changes frequently to parts.  Often in midstream of a year's production run.  The parts look similar before and after the little detail changes.  Sometimes it is a metallurgy change and both parts look identical.

This drives folks crazy.  The institutional memory of the "when, why, and what" of the modifications is lost from the institutional knowledge on both the buyer, seller, and specialty part manufacturer.

The best defense seems to be a good parts book for the OEM motor.  They list the different part numbers and the serial numbers of the vehicle when any changes were made.  This gives a good basis of discussion when ordering things.

Folks now are making replacement parts from sand cast or scanned and milled molds based on an original part.  They are not taking into account cooling shrinkage when the new casting cools.  The part is too small and the bolt patterns are off.  This is pretty common for pattern parts for old British bikes.    

Welcome to what passes for quality from small production parts specialists.

ANYONE with a cheesy 2D CAD program instantly thinks they are an "engineer".   Too bad most have never even read any book on production casting methods for ANY material.

 :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
Gladmytimeisendingboy
I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline manta22

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6528 on: December 31, 2017, 10:11:39 AM »
Back in our Can-Am days, Bob was always bitching about the quality of the British-made parts for his McLaren M8C vs American- made parts. The Brit parts were always a little off in some dimension.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Online salt27

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6529 on: December 31, 2017, 11:14:10 AM »
Bob was always bitching about the quality of the British-made parts for his McLaren M8C vs American- made parts. The Brit parts were always a little off in some dimension.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
 


By Bob, are you referring to Grumm's uncle?     :-D

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6530 on: December 31, 2017, 11:25:11 AM »
The heck of it is, is that it's a silly stainless steel flange for the exhaust header.  4 port holes, 5 bolt holes, laser cut out of 8 mm stainless plate.

Aaron Thompson was my shop teacher in high school.  If I had handed in a project that was this far off, he'd have had me do it again.

I read about this in the Milwaukee Sentinel about 30 years ago.  Before Harley-Davidson was sold by AMF, they literally had to scrap tons - and I mean TONS - of improperly machined transmission casings sitting on their warehouse shelves.  They worked on the production line, because the assemblers did "work-arounds" in order to make them fit.  But if you needed a replacement part for your existing motorcycle, it had to be virtually remachined in order to fit. 

The aluminum intake flange I bought from the same manufacturer - which it looks like we won't use  - is just as bad.

Now this is from a manufacturer who makes entire manifolds for the K series. 

As I mentioned earlier, I had similar QC issues with an Edlebrock Perform manifold - but at least the bolt holes all lined up.

Though I'm past the thirty-day return window, and could probably pitch-a-bitch and get a credit, but it's simply not worth the time or the cost of shipping it back to England.

I'll probably take the intake manifold flange, screw a couple of L-brackets on it, and install it in the kitchen to be used as a hanging spoon holder.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline manta22

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6531 on: December 31, 2017, 12:16:22 PM »
Bob was always bitching about the quality of the British-made parts for his McLaren M8C vs American- made parts. The Brit parts were always a little off in some dimension.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
 


By Bob, are you referring to Grumm's uncle?     :-D

HA!   :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline jdincau

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6532 on: December 31, 2017, 01:02:03 PM »
As my buddy Fred Gorke is fond of saying "it's merely a bolt on accessory"
Unless it's crazy, ambitious and delusional, it's not worth our time!

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6533 on: December 31, 2017, 05:02:09 PM »
Some photos of the cylinder head with the new cams and new vernier cam drive sprockets:













Images loaded from Flickr

 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Backtojpegsboy
I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6534 on: December 31, 2017, 06:07:48 PM »
Some photos of the "mockup assembly"













 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6535 on: December 31, 2017, 07:18:36 PM »
Happy New Year.............in the machine-shop :cheers:
2011 AMA Record - 250cc M-PG TRIUMPH Tiger Cub - 82.5 mph
2013 AMA Record - 250cc MPS-PG TRIUMPH Tiger Cub - 88.7 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc M-CG HONDA CB750 sohc - 136.6 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc MPS-CG HONDA CB750 sohc - 143.005 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc M-CF HONDA CB750 sohc - 139.85 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc MPS-CF HONDA CB750 sohc - 144.2025 mph

Chassis Builder / Tuner: Dave Murre

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6536 on: December 31, 2017, 08:10:11 PM »
Have you found a fool-proof method of keeping the adjustable cam sprocket bolts from loosening up?

Offline Jack Gifford

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6537 on: December 31, 2017, 11:58:00 PM »
Nice looking adjustable sprockets. However, I don't see any "vernier" aspect. Interesting that you used that terminology though- there could easily have been a pair of 9:10 ratio scales incorporated to give true vernier indication.

I built my cam sprockets with 5-bolt mounting, which in concert with the 56 teeth allows positioning in approximate 1.3 degree increments. It works- but causes some mental anguish when re-positioning a sprocket. :-(

[Full disclosure: I admit that this multi-bolt positioning scheme wasn't my idea- I learned it from Milodon, who use it on their camshaft gear drives]
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 12:05:09 AM by Jack Gifford »
M/T Pontiac hemi guru (or does guru status expire after 30 years?)

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6538 on: January 01, 2018, 06:15:50 AM »
Nice looking adjustable sprockets. However, I don't see any "vernier" aspect. Interesting that you used that terminology though- there could easily have been a pair of 9:10 ratio scales incorporated to give true vernier indication.

I built my cam sprockets with 5-bolt mounting, which in concert with the 56 teeth allows positioning in approximate 1.3 degree increments. It works- but causes some mental anguish when re-positioning a sprocket. :-(

[Full disclosure: I admit that this multi-bolt positioning scheme wasn't my idea- I learned it from Milodon, who use it on their camshaft gear drives]

Hi Jack,

There are vernier scales (kinda visible) in the top 2 photos of the gears.   True Vernier scales of 10 Vs 9 spacing, and since the individual increments are 2 crank degrees, that makes the vernier splits ~ .2 crank degrees.   Clearly, that it precise enough, and would be very precise, if the cams were gear driven.   But since they are driven by a "rubber belt", the effectiveness of the tiny splits is no doubt somewhat compromised.    I you have ever put a strobe light on belt drive cams at say, 8000 rpm with a varying load, you will want to have "extra" valve to piston clearance.   The last time I did this with belt driven cams, the belts were reinforced with fiberglass layers.   The Kevlar reinforced V8 cam drives I have used in recent years are much more stable, but the belts are also much shorter.   It is a test we will run while on the dyno.

 :cheers:   and Happy New Year, (frozen version . . . . )

Teethchatteringboy
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 06:18:55 AM by fordboy628 »
I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6539 on: January 01, 2018, 06:32:28 AM »

Have you found a fool-proof method of keeping the adjustable cam sprocket bolts from loosening up?


Hi Bo,

Loctite, grade depending on component material.   Blue for aluminum parts, red for steel/iron.   Depending on how paranoid I am about the adjuster bolts coming loose, safety wired bolts allow me to sleep without "nightmares".

Let's just say the the K engine is going to feature a lot of safety wired components.   I'll probably wire it up, but I'm sure Chris will learn how to do it, this year.   The list is going to start with the SS header nuts.   We will have to use anti-seize on the parts, so they will have to be wired, just like a Lycoming.

 :cheers:    and Happy New Year (still frozen version)

Warmingmychestnutsbythefireboy
I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein