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Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 2008446 times)

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Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6420 on: September 13, 2017, 08:23:33 AM »

On the valve size, using the lightest valves that you can legally use and a corresponding light valve spring / retainer package will allow lighter valve spring pressures. This should have the effect of reducing flex in the stock rocker arm (as required by rules). I have doubts that under running conditions, the stock rocker is actually transmitting the lobe profile to the valve. Obviously, to do this right, would require some Spintron time.


While I'm not completely familiar with the LP rules, the issue of valve spring pressure vs. friction was one Mark tackled the first time he saw the Grenade. 

It wasn't as bad as a "Which eye do you want poked out?'" issue, especially once it was explained to me what was happening

Granted, I doubt a limited prep 1275 is intended to spin 9K.   Only if you are an idiot that confuses noise with power . . . . . . . . or who ignores his tach . . . . . . . :roll: 

 If you're using stock rockers, you've only got about a 1.3:1 rocker ratio.  We ran 1.5:1 ratio, and even with the additional mechanical advantage of the spring over the valvetrain at full lift, we were still throwing over the lobe, even with Crane "racing" springs.  We wound up using KZ1000 drag bike springs from APE with a pretty stout seat pressure.

It was an issue of control and dependability, and while lighter components would have had value, we opted for indestructability.  With a 1.3:1 ratio, the velocity of actuation isn't as dramatic as with the 1.5, but you still need to control it over the lobe, and I don't know that the power loss due to friction is substantial enough to trade for the stability of a heavier spring on these things.

The stamped steel pieces are fairly light weight, and if the rules allow, a welded bead across the top and bottom where they're pressed together would strengthen them up.

Mark - does LP allow the use of the factory forgings?  Excellent question, to which I do not know the answer.      I think I've got a set.

Apologies for inserting my answers into your text.   :-D

 :cheers:
Lazytypistboy
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Offline hoffman900

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6421 on: September 13, 2017, 06:50:03 PM »
Quote
Bob, there is NO question in my mind that you are correct in thinking that the cam development could lead to further gains.    If I get an opportunity to "spin the cam grind for data", be assured I will.

And no doubt here you will!

My thoughts with the SCCA LP stuff:

Friction, friction, friction. And you know where most of the friction in an engine comes from ;)

Aftermarket billet cam - I believe cam journal sizes are unregulated, so installing the biggest that could fit (BBC?) and having an appropriate cam that will fit should help with the dynamics some.

Obviously, there is a bunch you can do with the lobe design itself playing with running hot lash vs cold and dwell.

On the valve size, using the lightest valves (valves are somewhat regulated by size and material. no titanium) that you can legally use and a corresponding light valve spring / retainer package will allow lighter valve spring pressures.  ( YES, definitely the right direction.  With the carb restriction, they can't turn any rpm anyway . . . .)   This should have the effect of reducing flex in the stock rocker arm (as required by rules). I have doubts that under running conditions, the stock rocker is actually transmitting the lobe profile to the valve. Obviously, to do this right, would require some Spintron time.

Lastly, is the exhaust. If we can push through 60bhp through a 1 3/8" od pipe off the head (to match the exhaust port area), I don't really see how most of the LBC racers can justify the sizes they do. (their headers are "too big" because there is no "packaging space" for them.  So the initial radius is "tight" and pipe diameter goes from N1 to N2 or N3, just to keep from impeding flow.)  Get the header working better and the more duration you can feed into the intake side and still protect the mid range / bottom end of the useable power curve.

Just my two cents.  :cheers:      Maybe, but $20.00 of value there . . . . . . . :wink:

My apologies for inserting my answers into your text.

My thoughts, for the moment, center on accurately determining carb/manifold airflow, and designing the balance of the Build Spec (©) around that, and the other "limitations".   I've been told, (by a couple of Limited Prep engine builders), that to get a "good" cylinder head casting, you need to start with a pallet load of potential candidates.   Certainly the same for the carbs.   Sounds really cheap to me!!    :roll:

 :cheers:
Fordboy

Good stuff, Mark. I was thinking some hollow stem valves. ;)

And to answer Chris, the forged rockers, I believe, are 100% legal.

And a quick comment on vintage... it's kept more engine shops in business and profitable than just about anything else I can think of. I think the last five years or so have been peak gravy train for those guys. Not sure where it goes from here, but most engine guys I know in that world are as old as their clients, soo...

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6422 on: September 16, 2017, 09:58:27 AM »
And now, we're on the "Shotgun" page . . . . . . .

 :cheers:
FORDboy
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I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6423 on: September 16, 2017, 10:08:27 AM »
Henry's Hemi, have we really gotten this far?

Okay - Kate and I have talked about retirement places - it's still a few years off, but always planning ahead, you know?

I know Mark and I have discussed it, as well. 

"Too hurricaney, too buggee, too droughty, to bubba-ee".  Upper Midwest snobbery, I openly confess.

And while Kate has put her foot down about Wendover (too gambley), we had considered other parts of Utah.

But this town just got kicked out of the running. 

"Too Tea-toddley" . . .

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2017/9/15/16307260/byu-wisconsin-football-bars-drinking-provo-nope

Go, Bucky!
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6424 on: September 16, 2017, 10:19:58 AM »
K-SERIES UPDATE.

Yeah, contrary to popular belief, we're ACTUALLY BUILDING A RACE CAR HERE!

We've got ALL OF THE NECESSARY COMPONENTS FOR THE HEAD ACQUIRED.  They're sitting in an undisclosed location, south of the Cheddar Curtain.

After about a year, Steve has got his workload under control, the Darton Sleeves have been designed and ordered, a fixture has been produced to work on the block, I've received an invoice, a down payment has been made, and with any luck, I should have the K-block back in my grubby little hands by the end of the month!

GREAT BIG SMILEY FACE! :-D
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6425 on: September 16, 2017, 02:20:08 PM »
And now, we're on the "Shotgun" page . . . . . . .

 :cheers:
FORDboy

AND, here it is . . . . . . .



FORD Shotgun Boss 429, prepped by Holman and Moody no less!!

Fit THAT in your MG . . . . . .   (there's a little "front end weight bias" there)

 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
BOSSboy
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I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6426 on: September 16, 2017, 06:37:31 PM »
The pity of that engine is that Ford only put it in the Mustang and, I guess, a handful of Cougars.

It would have been the perfect choice for the Mercury Marauder, the T-Bird, or the Ford XL, any of which would have made for a really hot, upscale, luxury-performance coupe.  Not a big market, for sure, but Buick was putting dual quad GS engines in Rivieras, Chrysler dropped the "TNT" 440 in the Chrysler 300/Hurst in 1969, or you could order a Caprice with a 427 and a four speed. 

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline nickleone

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6427 on: September 18, 2017, 04:40:52 PM »
Henry's Hemi, have we really gotten this far?

Okay - Kate and I have talked about retirement places - it's still a few years off, but always planning ahead, you know?

I know Mark and I have discussed it, as well. 

"Too hurricaney, too buggee, too droughty, to bubba-ee".  Upper Midwest snobbery, I openly confess.

And while Kate has put her foot down about Wendover (too gambley), we had considered other parts of Utah.

But this town just got kicked out of the running. 

"Too Tea-toddley" . . .

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2017/9/15/16307260/byu-wisconsin-football-bars-drinking-provo-nope

Go, Bucky!
Denver Colorado area or a little east.
We get snow but God takes it away quickly.
Lots of brew pubs.
700+ miles to Wendover about 10 hrs using I80.

Nick

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6428 on: September 18, 2017, 05:08:21 PM »
Henry's Hemi, have we really gotten this far?

Okay - Kate and I have talked about retirement places - it's still a few years off, but always planning ahead, you know?

I know Mark and I have discussed it, as well. 

"Too hurricaney, too buggee, too droughty, to bubba-ee".  Upper Midwest snobbery, I openly confess.

And while Kate has put her foot down about Wendover (too gambley), we had considered other parts of Utah.

But this town just got kicked out of the running. 

"Too Tea-toddley" . . .

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2017/9/15/16307260/byu-wisconsin-football-bars-drinking-provo-nope

Go, Bucky!
Denver Colorado area or a little east.
We get snow but God takes it away quickly.
Lots of brew pubs.
700+ miles to Wendover about 10 hrs using I80.

Nick

Boulder and Denver have a great appeal to both Kate and I.  The problem is, it has a great appeal to a lot of people who are wealthier than us, which drives up the price of housing. 

Too expensiveee . . .  :oops:
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline manta22

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6429 on: September 18, 2017, 06:01:25 PM »
Chris;

Take a look at Prescott, AZ. It is a moderate climate, small/medium sized town in a wooded area because of its altitude. North of Phoenix, South of Flagstaff.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6430 on: September 18, 2017, 08:37:41 PM »
Chris;

Take a look at Prescott, AZ. It is a moderate climate, small/medium sized town in a wooded area because of its altitude. North of Phoenix, South of Flagstaff.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Less than 2 hours to Phoenix, and all of the Cactus League baseball I can stand . . . beats the helloutta March in Wisconsin  :roll:

They got water up there?  I can always make my own beer . . .  :wink:

We're still in the talking stages - I'm about 5 years off at the minimum.

Part of our method in sussing it out is this - we've been keeping track of some of the musical acts we tend to like to hear, and tracking where they play.  Boulder DOES keep popping up, but so does Phoenix.  Kate and I hit Chicago two or three times a year, so the drive is comparable.

I like the idea of getting away from it all - but still having access to all of it.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6431 on: September 19, 2017, 05:43:15 AM »
Chris, consider the UP.  Quiet, easy to get to big cities, nice and lonely (abut 1/3 of Michigan's land area, about 3% of the population), and best of all - for what you'll pay for a house on lots of land (acres and acres) you'd get a really nice chicken coop in more traditional retirement areas.  Save your money for snow shovels!!
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Offline Elmo Rodge

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6432 on: September 19, 2017, 06:53:24 AM »
Buy Gus's house.  :wink: :cheers:
Wayno

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6433 on: September 19, 2017, 08:18:02 AM »
Chris, consider the UP.  Quiet, easy to get to big cities, nice and lonely (abut 1/3 of Michigan's land area, about 3% of the population), and best of all - for what you'll pay for a house on lots of land (acres and acres) you'd get a really nice chicken coop in more traditional retirement areas.  Save your money for snow shovels!!
I'm surprised only 3% of Michigan residents live there - what, with only a 9 month ice fishing season.
Buy Gus's house.  :wink: :cheers:
Wayno
Might consider that - Is there a hazmat service in Salina?   

JUST KIDDING

I keep talking, and I expect the invitations will stop . . .  :wink:
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline floydjer

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6434 on: September 19, 2017, 08:38:03 AM »
Chris...Grand Rapids...Beer City and weather that you are accustomed to...PLUS..You and I could sit in the garage all day long and get nothing done!!!
I`d never advocate drugs,alcohol,violence or insanity to anyone...But they work for me.