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Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 1574351 times)
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fordboy628
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« Reply #6105 on: November 22, 2016, 12:06:08 PM »

midgerooski,

I'm posting this here rather than on the Trump'd up Help?  Thread, but only because I'm a big believer in the idea of "helping" yourself,  . . . . .  like, for instance, to a second plate of turkey and stuffing . . . . . . . .    grin

I sit here in my dungeon laboratory, fondly gazing upon my shiny, brandy new, cam checking fixture from the isle of Gertgen.   smiley

Maybe I'll post some cam checking fixture porn pics at some later date.

If you want to rub it for good luck, you will need to risk running the dreaded "cheddar curtain", and make a trip to the "subdivision of unified colours" . . . . . . .

 cheers
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 12:09:15 PM by fordboy628 » Logged

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« Reply #6106 on: November 22, 2016, 06:25:30 PM »

bugster,

This appears to be right up your alley . . . . . .

http://bugeyeguy.com/category/bugeyes-for-sale

 Dead Horse Dead Horse Dead Horse
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Milwaukee Midget
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« Reply #6107 on: November 22, 2016, 06:59:18 PM »

bugster,

This appears to be right up your alley . . . . . .

http://bugeyeguy.com/category/bugeyes-for-sale

 Dead Horse Dead Horse Dead Horse

They're kinda like recreational boats - Everybody wants one . . . until they own one . . .  wink
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Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  rolleyes

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

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« Reply #6108 on: November 22, 2016, 10:24:57 PM »

bugster,

This appears to be right up your alley . . . . . .

http://bugeyeguy.com/category/bugeyes-for-sale

 Dead Horse Dead Horse Dead Horse

They're kinda like recreational boats - Everybody wants one . . . until they own one . . .  wink

...and they all have been named...   rolleyes
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fordboy628
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« Reply #6109 on: November 23, 2016, 06:42:52 AM »

bugster,

This appears to be right up your alley . . . . . .

http://bugeyeguy.com/category/bugeyes-for-sale

 Dead Horse Dead Horse Dead Horse

They're kinda like recreational boats - Everybody wants one . . . until they own one . . .  wink

...and they all have been named...   rolleyes

Yeah,  that's kind of . . . .   icky . . . . .

I've referred to every Bugeye I've ever seen as:   Piece of *#*#    (insert your imagination here . . . . .)
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I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein
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« Reply #6110 on: November 23, 2016, 08:12:27 AM »

Well, mine is named "Frakensprite", and I even have a decal for it when I get it on the road . . .



It's really not too far off - I just need to resolve the oil pressure issue.
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"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  rolleyes

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!
fordboy628
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« Reply #6111 on: January 10, 2017, 02:44:56 AM »

midget,

3K+ of "unstupidy" . . . . . . .






So the story goes:

2 cams arrived at an engine shop.    A regular cam and a "daddy" cam.    BUT, on the dyno, both cams make the same bhp in the test engine.   WTF? ? ? ?
After the cam "proctology", both cams: SPEC OUT THE SAME . . . . . .        Hmmmm . . . . . . .    Response of cam manufacturer:   WHOOPS.

         Yeah, WHOOPS . . . . . .




Some thoughts:

Cams:  $800 ea     assembly and dyno testing per cam:   ~ $2500 ea      Approx total:  $6600 USD    Client satisfaction factor:  BIG OLE ZERO

Cam fixture:  $2800      Cam Analysis software:  $500       Compatible laptop:   $500       Total  $3800 or so . . . . . . .

Should "professional" engine shops "inspect" every cam?      Only if they want to get "smarter"               or not . . . . . . .


http://performancetrends.com/cam_test_stand.htm



Confucius say:    "Trust, but VERIFY."         Or    Dead Horse

 cheers
Tiredofwaitingforyoutopostboy
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 05:42:59 AM by fordboy628 » Logged

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« Reply #6112 on: January 10, 2017, 05:41:03 AM »

FB:  re: cam testing setup..
Looks nice, but without knowing exactly how it works, and being unable to grasp it and get a feel of its rigidity, the skinny prong that serves as a rest stop for the (I assume) angular encoder looks kind of flexible.  Is it stiff enough to accurately resolve the angular positions?  What sort of angular resolution is obtained?  Does the “encoder” also drive rotation of the cam or is it rotated manually?
On the other end, how about a little description of the cam “follower” assembly, below the LVDT?  Looks like some sort of physical contacter.  Is it “sharp” or radiused, and will it give a true profile if radiused?  Can lobe phase angles also be determined by moving it to another cam?
Just curious.
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fordboy628
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« Reply #6113 on: January 10, 2017, 07:17:58 AM »

FB:  re: cam testing setup..
Looks nice, but without knowing exactly how it works, and being unable to grasp it and get a feel of its rigidity, the skinny prong that serves as a rest stop for the (I assume) angular encoder looks kind of flexible.  Is it stiff enough to accurately resolve the angular positions?  What sort of angular resolution is obtained?  Does the “encoder” also drive rotation of the cam or is it rotated manually?
On the other end, how about a little description of the cam “follower” assembly, below the LVDT?  Looks like some sort of physical contacter.  Is it “sharp” or radiused, and will it give a true profile if radiused?  Can lobe phase angles also be determined by moving it to another cam?
Just curious.


IO,

Over the last 25 years or so, I've used several "cam checker" set-ups.    They have varied from the original low priced, entry level "Cam Doctor" (~ $4K and needed a desktop), up to and including an Andrews Products fully automated EZCAM  M52 (?) (I don't know the cost on this, but it was at a professional level race team) which is/was "state of the art".   It also required a dedicated desktop.   I've posted the photos of my current Performance Trends "Cam Analyzer"  (~ $4K, but can be attached to a laptop.)   I've also spent a lot of time accumulating and processing data by hand.    My thoughts follow.

Some facts I know about encoder resolution:

My original Cam Doctor:     Linear resolution: +/- .00025"      Rotary resolution: +/- .1 degree        Fixture:  Anodised aluminum plate, reasonably stable.
Andrews EZCAM:                        "                 unknown                      "              unknown              BUT, both were very good and state of the art.   Cam mfg quality.
                                                                                                                                                Fixture: Granite base and tool steel, very stable.
My current Cam Analyst:             "                +/- .000030"                 "             +/- .01 degree      Fixture: Anodised aluminum extrusions, reasonably stable.

http://www.andrewsproducts.com/camshaft-inspection/ezcam-details-software


Answers to your questions:      (Sorry for the cut and paste, but I'm still a slow and crappy typist . . . . .)

Looks nice, but without knowing exactly how it works, and being unable to grasp it and get a feel of its rigidity, the skinny prong that serves as a rest stop for the (I assume) angular encoder looks kind of flexible.  Is it stiff enough to accurately resolve the angular positions?    Yes, but you definitely need to pay attention to this on this fixture.

What sort of angular resolution is obtained?  Does the “encoder” also drive rotation of the cam or is it rotated manually?  The angular resolution is very high.    Manual cam rotation drives the encoder, but there is a motorized option to turn the cam for an additional $1800.

On the other end, how about a little description of the cam “follower” assembly, below the LVDT?  Looks like some sort of physical contacter.  Is it “sharp” or radiused, and will it give a true profile if radiused?     There are several follower "options" from Perf Trends and you have the ability to produce a follower precisely to mimic the ones used in the application.   The one in the photos is a PT item with a .75" diameter ball to mimic a .75" roller wheel.   I also have PT's "virtual" flat follower.   I'm planning to machine some application specific followers for certain engines I work with.   The follower must match what is used in the application to produce an accurate profile of cam/valve motion in use.    This accuracy may not be necessary when just "comparing" cam lobes, but this is a judgment call that cam mfg's hate.

Can lobe phase angles also be determined by moving it to another cam?    Lobe phasing can be accurately determined on ONE cam where the rotary encoder is not moved.   When comparing from cam to cam, the rotary indexing is re-initialized, typically referencing the centerline of the #1 intake lobe.   Phasing comparisons are then accurate from cam to cam.


My overall thoughts:


A/   If I was manufacturing cams, I would want the highest resolution and stability possible.  As in "rock solid".    This is the route mfg's take, as well they should.

2/   Erratic rotary motion can affect measurement quality, especially the derivatives.   Ie, velocity, acceleration and jerk.   USUALLY, the software has some setting for filtering erratic motion, but this defeats accuracy.    The trick is to have even rotary motion, (however it is achieved) and linear sampling at high rotary rates of data accumulation, say, 100 samples per degree.   Since all the software "smoothes" the data, more data points is better than less.

d/   Since what I'm doing is checking/identifying what a cam is, the most important aspect to me, and perhaps others in this situation, is repeatability.   Currently, I can remove and reset and re-test a cam and get results within .0005" for lift and .1 degree for duration.   I find this acceptable for my purposes.    In communications with cam mfg's I know and use, the data I generate matches the data they generate within the specs I listed on the same sample cam.

z/   Any of these fixtures produces data far more easily and far more accurately than trying to accumulate this type of data by hand.   As discussed way back in this thread, even large diameter degree wheels and high resolution dial indicators leave something to be desired.    Since I pulled the trigger on this fixture, I've had the opportunity to re-measure some of the cams I had "profiled" by hand.   Understandably, the results from the fixture are far more accurate than the "by hand" data, especially for the derivatives.    Since this is important to some of the analysis I'm doing, this dictates which direction I need to take.  Others may choose differently, depending on their needs.



Yes, I think $4K systems are inferior to $25K systems, but as long as the fixture is not "flimsy", I expect "usable" results can be generated, depending on the operator.   ALL these setups use commercially available rotary and linear encoders and the ones used by PT are similar to the ones used by Comp Cams and Andrews Products.   The talent of the operator, the quality of the encoders, and the software manipulation of the data are the key issues.

So you pay your money and take your choice . . . . . . . .

 cheers
Fordboy
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 08:26:08 AM by fordboy628 » Logged

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« Reply #6114 on: January 10, 2017, 01:19:07 PM »

Dang, I didn’t expect such a treatise, but appreciate it and figure it will be informative/instructive for everybody.
To produce valve lift results, does the software include facilities for specifying lash, rocker pivot location, rocker ratio/arm length etc., or is all that a secondary evaluation?
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« Reply #6115 on: January 10, 2017, 03:56:30 PM »

Dang, I didn’t expect such a treatise, but appreciate it and figure it will be informative/instructive for everybody.

To produce valve lift results, does the software include facilities for specifying lash, rocker pivot location, rocker ratio/arm length etc., or is all that a secondary evaluation?

Thanks!   Well, the idea has always been to try and educate those willing to read and digest information.

Most of the software packages include the ability to analyze cam motion and/or valve motion.   Except for lobe to lobe comparisons, cam motion is actually less useful, since the engine "sees" and uses valve motion.    Needles to say, valve train geometry can really affect the results, and it is what is most important.   That can go into another, later post.

 cheers
Fordboy
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"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

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« Reply #6116 on: January 10, 2017, 11:16:11 PM »



2 cams arrived at an engine shop.    A regular cam and a "daddy" cam.    BUT, on the dyno, both cams make the same bhp in the test engine.   WTF? ? ? ?
After the cam "proctology", both cams: SPEC OUT THE SAME . . . . . .        Hmmmm . . . . . . .    Response of cam manufacturer:   WHOOPS.

         Yeah, WHOOPS . . . . . .




Confucius say:    "Trust, but VERIFY."         Or    Dead Horse

 cheers
Tiredofwaitingforyoutopostboy



Somewhere in our million+ views build diary is our cam saga
We had a cam ground from a billet by a local cam grinder that had just changed hands
when i went to put it in the block, the lobes were bigger than the journals. OOPS
So I rang the guy and expalined the situation. This was on a friday morning
He apologised, and said put it in a box it will be picked up before you go home from work.
When I got to work on monday morning, the courier was there waiting with the reground cam.
Dialled up perfectly. made more HP then the cam guy said it would
Hooray for customer service as it doesn't happen that much anymore
G


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« Reply #6117 on: January 11, 2017, 03:05:07 AM »

... Two cams arrived at an engine shop.    A regular cam and a "daddy" cam.    BUT, on the dyno, both cams make the same bhp in the test engine.   WTF? ? ? ?
After the cam "proctology", both cams: SPEC OUT THE SAME . . . . . .        Hmmmm . . . . . . .    Response of cam manufacturer:   WHOOPS...
Umm... so... two cams measure the same and perform the same. What am I missing here? Was the word 'not' intended to appear somewhere in this example?

Anyhoo... thanks for the rundown on cam checking machines.
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« Reply #6118 on: January 11, 2017, 04:44:52 AM »

... Two cams arrived at an engine shop.    A regular cam and a "daddy" cam.    BUT, on the dyno, both cams make the same bhp in the test engine.   WTF? ? ? ?
After the cam "proctology", both cams: SPEC OUT THE SAME . . . . . .        Hmmmm . . . . . . .    Response of cam manufacturer:   WHOOPS...
Umm... so... two cams measure the same and perform the same. What am I missing here? Was the word 'not' intended to appear somewhere in this example?

Anyhoo... thanks for the rundown on cam checking machines.

Hi Jack,

I guess I was a little obtuse about the description of the cams in my camshaft tale above.     The cams were supposed to be different grinds, with the so-called "daddy" cam having more lobe lift and duration than the "little" cam.   Not much difference in "lobe area", BUT, enough to matter.    The cams were stamped as different grinds, yet the lobe profiles and lobe areas matched . . . . . . . .

So my point is: That without some ability to quickly check this ahead of installation, a LOT of money got expended for no tangible results.   The lesson learned is that trust is a separate issue Vs what you as a customer receive.    Now this was more than a simple shipping or picking error.   The cam was mis-identified and/or mis-ground.    So, somehow, the mfg's quality control process did not occur or ? ? ? ?

Smaller racing engine shops can not afford the cost of "customer satisfaction" when it is a supplier's error.    The loss of a few thousand dollars of revenue, during the lean winter business period, can make or break some businesses that are "lean/low profit" operations.

Now in the interest of "fairness", the cam mfg DID replace the cam, at their cost.

But, the other costs to the customer, ~ $2500, remain unresolved, and the customer remains "unhappy".

 cheers
Fordboy
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 05:15:33 AM by fordboy628 » Logged

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« Reply #6119 on: January 12, 2017, 09:45:59 AM »

midget,

Uhhhh, might you be persuaded to post something to your thread?

I mean, you know, IF IT'S NOT TOO MUCH TROUBLE!!!!

Sickandcrankyboy
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