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Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 2010426 times)

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Offline hoffman900

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6090 on: November 13, 2016, 10:41:36 AM »
Mark, et-al,

Figured you guys would enjoy this:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BMky5ObAp0I/?taken-by=power_technik

Dailey modular dry sump pan / manifold for a 1500cc Ford.

Yes, Dailey Engineering is "state of the art" or, perhaps, slightly beyond.     His stuff is used in top line Nascar (both, Toyota and Roush-Yates, hmmmm . . . . .) and F1 engines.     He is on a par with Cosworth Components and Autoverdi units from Europe.

Needless to say, this sort of quality comes at a price . . . . . .    but that did not stop one of my clients from using a complete Dailey Engineering system on his 632 cubic inch BB Chevy match race engine with EFI, ESC, and nitrous . . . . . . .

The power numbers are BIG, and private . . . . . . .    (Sorry, no photos either . . . . .)

Something to think about is how the very efficient removal of the oil "cloud" from the inside of the crankcase affects other aspects of the engine's engineering.   I want to caution anyone who thinks this might be a "one issue" modification.    Remember the law of "unintended consequences" . . . . .

 :cheers:

*cough* piston squirters and maybe some DLC coatings here and there *cough*  :wink:

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6091 on: November 13, 2016, 07:05:59 PM »
The first 100 hp are the cheapest.  I don't know what this engine puts out now, but if it's developed to the point that they're chasing down power with a piece like this, you're probably looking at the last 2-3 hp.

And those last 2-3 are probably as costly as they are beautiful.

That is a very serious looking piece for what's likely going into an amateur race team's car.  

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline hoffman900

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6092 on: November 13, 2016, 09:25:31 PM »
The first 100 hp are the cheapest.  I don't know what this engine puts out now, but if it's developed to the point that they're chasing down power with a piece like this, you're probably looking at the last 2-3 hp.

And those last 2-3 are probably as costly as they are beautiful.

That is a very serious looking piece for what's likely going into an amateur race team's car.  



A little bit more than that since they'll play the crankcase vacuum card and the thin ring game well.

Keep in mind, this is a team lead by Real Time Racing's (essentially, the factory Honda/Acura team in the US) former technical director, they have Hans Hermann at their disposal, and Comptech's resources. Big $$ but it's a beautiful thing to see what an effort like that can do with a vintage platform.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6093 on: November 13, 2016, 10:58:43 PM »
Big $$ but it's a beautiful thing to see what an effort like that can do with a vintage platform.

 :wink:
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6094 on: November 14, 2016, 07:06:25 AM »
and when you keep trying to spin big motors in to the rpm range of little motors-- longevity just seems to be fleeting.  :-o
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Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6095 on: November 15, 2016, 04:30:38 AM »
and when you keep trying to spin big motors in to the rpm range of little motors-- longevity just seems to be fleeting.  :-o

When you fling big, heavy parts around and around, in the finish,   F still = m*a

My buddy Newton wins this argument, every time . . . . . .

This is why I'm an advocate of some "pre-engineering" to determine 'g' forces that would be imposed upon whatever parts are selected.

Higher loads   always =  less cycles until part failure.   This is an argument I win every time . . . . . .

 :cheers:
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline jacksoni

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6096 on: November 15, 2016, 06:47:51 AM »


  This is an argument I win every time . . . . . .

 :cheers:

[/quote]
Someone said "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink".  I think your quote from Einstein may apply... 8-) :cheers:

Otherwise I agree completely......
Jack Iliff
 G/BGS-250.235 1987
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 G/GMS-182.144 2019

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6097 on: November 15, 2016, 09:22:01 AM »
But... but... but... that's what we do in LSR.... work to find the failure point of our motors.... hopefully it is somewhere beyond the record we are trying to break, and it only happens when we try to best our own record.
We have experience with that... don't get me wrong, we don't want to make a doorstop out of a motor, but we don't really want to leave too many MPH on the table either.
We have some dyno numbers that seem to equate with Bockscar speeds... my limited dyno experience has already consumed an engine that I was pushing to a number  :cry: but I told myself it was better to blow it here than 1200 miles away.... not near as much fun, but better.  :|
  :cheers:
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6098 on: November 15, 2016, 11:01:34 AM »


  This is an argument I win every time . . . . . .

 :cheers:


Someone said "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink".  I think your quote from Einstein may apply... 8-) :cheers:

Otherwise I agree completely......

But... but... but... that's what we do in LSR.... work to find the failure point of our motors.... hopefully it is somewhere beyond the record we are trying to break, and it only happens when we try to best our own record.
We have experience with that... don't get me wrong, we don't want to make a doorstop out of a motor, but we don't really want to leave too many MPH on the table either.
We have some dyno numbers that seem to equate with Bockscar speeds... my limited dyno experience has already consumed an engine that I was pushing to a number  :cry: but I told myself it was better to blow it here than 1200 miles away.... not near as much fun, but better.  :|
  :cheers:

OK, I think I need to refine/explain my comment a bit . . . . . .

A/    This is an argument I win every time . . . . . .      YES, as a matter of fact, I do win this, EVERY TIME.   Even if the client does not agree with my calculation or evaluation,
       when the calculated load is too high, the parts break.     My opinion/math has nothing to do with it.

2/    I'm also not saying all "experimentation" should be eliminated or avoided.    The "optimisty" nature of racers prevents this anyway . . . .      AND, as I have pointed out in
       the past, parts that never break, are no doubt, too heavy.

d/    What I am an advocate for is:   Some sensible calculation with regard to the mass of the parts Vs the load applied and the number of cycles to be endured.  This means
       light weight parts need to be replaced on a maintenance schedule, prior to failure.    But it also means: extremely light parts can only operate reliably in short cycle
       environments.

Sensible "engineering" eliminates the "dumb a$$" possibilities, that might be considered without "engineering".

I don't always advocate reliability to the point of boredom, but it beats not being able to back up your run . . . . . . . .

 :cheers:
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6099 on: November 15, 2016, 11:11:45 AM »
Bob - I get it - absolutely.

There is a romance to going all in, and a "devil take the hindquarters" approach.

Legends are seldom made in the controlled environment of a white-room engine development shop, but rather with a pile of "iffy" parts being bolted together in the bathtub on the 2nd floor of a stinky Motel 6 at 4:30 in the morning.

But there's also a huge satisfaction in taking it off the trailer, making a pass, taking it to impound, backing it up the next morning, and drinking beer for the rest of the week.

I think Mark will agree with me on this - we're getting too old to let preventable mechanical failures stand in the way of our beer drinking.   

It's all about priorities . . .  :cheers:



 
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6100 on: November 15, 2016, 11:16:42 AM »

Bob - I get it - absolutely.

There is a romance to going all in, and a "devil take the hindquarters" approach.

Legends are seldom made in the controlled environment of a white-room engine development shop, but rather with a pile of "iffy" parts being bolted together in the bathtub on the 2nd floor of a stinky Motel 6 at 4:30 in the morning.

But there's also a huge satisfaction in taking it off the trailer, making a pass, taking it to impound, backing it up the next morning, and drinking beer for the rest of the week.

I think Mark will agree with me on this - we're getting too old to let preventable mechanical failures stand in the way of our beer drinking.   

It's all about priorities . . .  :cheers:
 

Hell yes!!!!!!

 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6101 on: November 15, 2016, 12:51:47 PM »
MM said:  "...in the bathtub on the 2nd floor of a stinky Motel 6 at 4:30 in the morning."

Unh, Chris, the Amos and Stainless/Johnboy stay on the first floor, not the second.  Otherwise you nailed 'em.
Jon E. Wennerberg
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Offline jacksoni

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6102 on: November 15, 2016, 01:00:54 PM »
MM said:  "...in the bathtub on the 2nd floor of a stinky Motel 6 at 4:30 in the morning."


Am sorry to say I have done that.... Wasn't my fault, the flimsy stamped steel heat shield on the turbo that warped did it.... :roll:
Having learned, I now pay close attention to everything Fordboy says.
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Offline Stainless1

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6103 on: November 15, 2016, 11:29:18 PM »
Bob - I get it - absolutely.

But there's also a huge satisfaction in taking it off the trailer, making a pass, taking it to impound, backing it up the next morning, and drinking beer for the rest of the week.
It's all about priorities . . .  :cheers:


We are never satisfied with that... always trying to go faster after we set a record... As I said earlier we all work to find the failure point of our motors.... hopefully it is somewhere beyond the record we are trying to break, and it only happens when we try to best our own record.
Not saying you should run them to failure cause you can, just hate to leave MPH on the track... It is always better to build a 10 mile motor than an 8 mile motor...
don't ask me how I know  :cheers:
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.

Online 4-barrel Mike

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6104 on: November 15, 2016, 11:53:38 PM »
What?  You're not there for Speed Weekend?   :mrgreen:

 :cheers:

Mike
Mike Kelly - PROUD owner of the V4F that powered the #1931 VGC to a 82.803 mph record in 2008!