(Note: Donations are not tax deductible)

This is a public forum. The opinions expressed here don't
necessarily reflect the feelings of The Folks That Run The Site (that's us)
unless we explicitly say so, ok?


Forum's been "upgraded".
Things will look a bit different.
A *few* posts might have gotten lost in the crossover.
PM bobc with problems, or post in "Website Suggestions".

Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 1985199 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline fordboy628

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2260
  • Age: 3
  • Location: Koozebane
  • GONE FISHIN' . . .
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6030 on: August 20, 2016, 05:43:58 AM »
Indeed, but they did have a problem on their backup run.  Between the 2 and the 3, they lost oil pressure, so their attempt average was based between the 1 and the 2.  Still came in with a 152 average on a 144, but it would have made a huge statement if it had held together through the 3, and they could have averaged the 166 down run speed through the 3, rather than basing it on the 160.

They mentioned they thought the oil pump gave up the ghost, and Mark, I was right, they WERE running a stock oil pump.  I'm not sure how the rest of the engine was plumbed with the BMW head, but there was no report of external leakage.  Post mortem will tell the tale.

If any 'A' series powered project screamed for a "revised" oiling system, it would be this one.    At 370 bhp/liter, IMHO, oil flow rate rate; oil pressure, at the bearings, oil film strength; and no doubt bearing area; ALL need to be improved.   Block and crank oil feed methodology needs to be evaluated with a critical eye.    For comparison, this is turbo era, F1 type power output.    I, personally, would not try this without a dry sump system.    Would a dry sump present a rule problem for their class?     Also note that some 'A' series engines running in SCCA events are having oil system related failures, and those engines are producing 100 to 130 bhp per liter . . . . . . .     Since the Kiwi's first foray onto the salt ended with oiling issues, I'd say this is not a co-incidence.

BUT, they get the Fordboy Annual "Clean Plate Club" award.     :roll:

Still  :cheers:   :cheers:   :cheers:  for what they accomplished.

Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline fordboy628

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2260
  • Age: 3
  • Location: Koozebane
  • GONE FISHIN' . . .
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6031 on: August 20, 2016, 06:13:09 AM »
midget,

Uhhh, not to raise a touchy subject, but, how many days until World of Speed 2017?

The "Special K" awaits . . . . . . .

 :cheers:
Antsyboy
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 06:15:40 AM by fordboy628 »
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Milwaukee Midget

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6477
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Beerhaven, Wisconsin
  • After further investigation, I/GT record holder
    • Milwaukee Midget Racing
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6032 on: August 20, 2016, 09:17:41 AM »
midget,

Uhhh, not to raise a touchy subject, but, how many days until World of Speed 2017?

The "Special K" awaits . . . . . . .

 :cheers:
Antsyboy

380 days.

I've got the Midget pulled out from the corner of the garage - cleaning it up to have it ready for this -

https://wisconsinhotrodradio.com/event/milwaukee-concours-d-elegance/

The Milwaukee and Great Lakes MG Motor Group, aka MG3 (you just have to love it that my car club is named after a German machine gun) has a display of post-war MGs we're putting together for the Saturday portion of the show.  With the garage as neat as it's been all summer, I'd like to determine the layover with the offer-up plate next Sunday.

Terry's on the case for the intake manifold once we have runner lengths.


Front of block measurement:   7.459"  (-.531" dia ball) + 1.0155"  =  7.9435"  (201.76mm)
Rear of block measurement:    7.456"  (-.531" dia ball) + 1.0155"  =  7.9405"  (201.69mm)

So for design and machining purposes finished deck height is going to be 201.50mm (7.933").

This allows a slight amount to be surfaced off the block to "square" it up, unless the block needs to be align honed.   If that is the case we may need to reduce that deck height dimension by a small amount, say an additional .005"/.010"  (.127mm/.254mm)

This is about the point where dimensions can start to be "fixed" and the "build geometry" locked in, so parts can start to be ordered.  



I'm thinking we should just assume an align hone at this point and order the rods, pistons and liners accordingly.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 10:16:25 AM by Milwaukee Midget »
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Stan Back

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5112
  • Location: San Berdoo
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6033 on: August 20, 2016, 01:57:38 PM »
No rule infraction for dry sump in Altered.
Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club".
Celebrating 67th anniversary of racing on the salt.

Offline fordboy628

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2260
  • Age: 3
  • Location: Koozebane
  • GONE FISHIN' . . .
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6034 on: August 21, 2016, 04:54:21 AM »
No rule infraction for dry sump in Altered.

Thank you Stan.

A BMC Mini dry sump system is something that has been talked/dreamed about for at least a couple of decades that I am aware of.    As recently as 2 years ago, a client asked me for a proposal to design a Mini D/S system.     I submitted the proposal, and the client balked at the price, (go figure), so the project never went forward.     It was a shame really, because the proposed cost was LESS than the cost of a Dailey Engineering system for a popular application.

This is the real problem:    Clients who are unfamiliar with costs for "oddball/one off" applications, tend to think that they are being "ripped off".    Most do not even bother to try to get a bid direct from a manufacturer themselves, because they do not want to put in the time or the effort, or the manufacturer doesn't want to be bothered with "one offs".

It's the old story: "I want a Cuban cigar, and I'm willing to pay as much as 25ยข for it.    Why is that a problem?"

C'est la vie . . . .

 :cheers:
FORDnotBMCboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Milwaukee Midget

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6477
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Beerhaven, Wisconsin
  • After further investigation, I/GT record holder
    • Milwaukee Midget Racing
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6035 on: August 21, 2016, 11:21:06 AM »
The irony of all of this is that I met Mark through a correspondence via E-bay regarding a BMC factory experimental dry sump system he had for sale.  I was fascinated.

It drives off of a separate gear on the otherwise standard camshaft toward the front of the block, and is quite ingenious in its layout.  Seeing as Project '64 is not running a distributor, but maintains a stock camshaft to drive the factory oil pump, I see no reason they couldn't use the stock distributor drive to operate an external pump as a supplement to the standard internal pump.  Use the stock pump for the bottom end, and the separate pump to take care of the head.  This could then direct the oil flow toward the valves to take away heat, which would be huge in a 370 hp turbocharged 1 liter.

But again, regarding the Project '64, this is all speculation.

I think I'm going to try to contact Gary and the guys and invite them to join this discussion.  It's a fascinating build, and we seem to have a lot of A-series LSR interest generated here.  I'm dying to know what the post mortem tells them.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Stan Back

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5112
  • Location: San Berdoo
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6036 on: August 21, 2016, 11:52:19 AM »
Chris --

If you ask them to join in the discussion on landracing.com, it'll take 'til October or so for them to catch up with the 400+ pages.  Don't scare them away.

Stan
Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club".
Celebrating 67th anniversary of racing on the salt.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6477
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Beerhaven, Wisconsin
  • After further investigation, I/GT record holder
    • Milwaukee Midget Racing
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6037 on: August 21, 2016, 12:07:47 PM »
Chris --

If you ask them to join in the discussion on landracing.com, it'll take 'til October or so for them to catch up with the 400+ pages.  Don't scare them away.

Stan

I'll clue them in as to what's germane.

Of course, Air New Zealand provides free Wi-Fi, so I might just save them the cost of a copy of "War and Peace" for the flight back . . .
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline fordboy628

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2260
  • Age: 3
  • Location: Koozebane
  • GONE FISHIN' . . .
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6038 on: August 23, 2016, 05:47:58 AM »
The irony of all of this is that I met Mark through a correspondence via E-bay regarding a BMC factory experimental dry sump system he had for sale.  I was fascinated.

It drives off of a separate gear on the otherwise standard camshaft toward the front of the block, and is quite ingenious in its layout.  Seeing as Project '64 is not running a distributor, but maintains a stock camshaft to drive the factory oil pump, I see no reason they couldn't use the stock distributor drive to operate an external pump as a supplement to the standard internal pump.  Use the stock pump for the bottom end, and the separate pump to take care of the head.  This could then direct the oil flow toward the valves to take away heat, which would be huge in a 370 hp turbocharged 1 liter.

But again, regarding the Project '64, this is all speculation.

I think I'm going to try to contact Gary and the guys and invite them to join this discussion.  It's a fascinating build, and we seem to have a lot of A-series LSR interest generated here.  I'm dying to know what the post mortem tells them.

JMHO, but that 60's era, early style pump has reliability issues of its' own, so I would NOT recommend using it for this application.

As for driving an oil pump off the standard camshaft distributor drive gear and the intermediate shaft:   This results in the same problem as the 60's era pump.    The relatively high loads of driving an oil pump, overload the small toothed skew gears cut on the gears mating to the camshaft gears, wearing them out in short order.   Every engine that uses this method of driving the oil pump(s)  [50's Fiats, MGBs, early MG T series, and others]  suffers from the same problem.    Another specific BMC example is the "Racing" MGB engine.   As soon as the larger, high pressure, high volume, "racing" oil pumps are fitted, the skew drive gears fail.    The unpredictable nature of those failures can have "explosive" results.   This is why more "modern" engine designs drive the oil pump(s) off the nose of the crankshaft or a jackshaft.    Think Chevy LS or . . . . .  Rover K for instance . . . . . .

I'm still of the opinion that a multi-stage, external drive, dry sump oil pump would be the key to increased oil system reliability for this application.    Perhaps a billet front cover/cam drive arrangement could incorporate a crank driven oil pump ala Chevy LS or Rover K.    Engineering and fitment would not be easy of course.     Sounds like a good project for some "down under", under-employed racing engine engineer.

IMO, every engine has its' "Achilles heel", that's just the way it is.   Some are just worse do deal with than others.    This example is pretty serious.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Podunk

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 226
  • Age: 74
  • Location: Hebron, IN
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6039 on: August 23, 2016, 07:07:05 PM »
Drysump Boy,
If you find a underemployed engineer to design it I know a masochist machinist who will machine it.
Terry

Offline Milwaukee Midget

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6477
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Beerhaven, Wisconsin
  • After further investigation, I/GT record holder
    • Milwaukee Midget Racing
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6040 on: August 23, 2016, 08:09:22 PM »
Drysump Boy,
If you find a underemployed engineer to design it I know a masochist machinist who will machine it.
Terry


I'd just as soon see you do it, Terry.  :wink:
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

  • Nancy and me and the pit bike
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12462
  • Age: 71
  • Location: Skandia, Michigan
  • Nancy -- 201.913 mph record on a production ZX15!
    • Nancy and Jon's personal website.
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6041 on: August 23, 2016, 08:15:57 PM »
What'd the masochist say to the sadist?

Hurt me, please -- hurt me.

And the sadist replied -- "No, I won't!"
Jon E. Wennerberg
 a/k/a Seldom Seen Slim
 Skandia, Michigan
 (that's way up north)
2 Club member x2
Owner of landracing.com

Offline Milwaukee Midget

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6477
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Beerhaven, Wisconsin
  • After further investigation, I/GT record holder
    • Milwaukee Midget Racing
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6042 on: August 23, 2016, 11:20:02 PM »
What'd the masochist say to the sadist?

Hurt me, please -- hurt me.

And the sadist replied -- "No, I won't!"

No day is complete without a little pillow talk.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline fordboy628

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2260
  • Age: 3
  • Location: Koozebane
  • GONE FISHIN' . . .
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6043 on: August 24, 2016, 04:28:17 AM »
Drysump Boy,
If you find a underemployed engineer to design it I know a masochist machinist who will machine it.
Terry


Terry,

You would be the first choice!!    BUT, this particular project is so fraught with indecision, paranoia and lack of adequate funding that I would not "hold my breath".    At one point I considered fronting the costs of the prototypes myself, but some basic "market research" (talking to racers) convinced me that the market for such pieces does not exist.

Most Mini racers are unconvinced that a dry sump system would add any power or reliability.    AND, as you can see from the example we have been discussing, Mini racers seem to be stuck in a "time warp", circa - - - - 1964!!    I suspect that it is not just because the 60's were the heyday of the Mini Cooper, but the heyday of the "Mini-skirt",  other such fashions, and the "Summer of Love".    My theory could be wrong, but I don't think so.   :roll: 

It's more likely that Chris will have you make some dry sump bits for a certain Rover engine . . . . . . . .

 :cheers:
Roverboy
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 04:46:53 AM by fordboy628 »
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline fordboy628

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2260
  • Age: 3
  • Location: Koozebane
  • GONE FISHIN' . . .
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #6044 on: August 24, 2016, 04:31:46 AM »
What'd the masochist say to the sadist?

Hurt me, please -- hurt me.

And the sadist replied -- "No, I won't!"

UUUhhhhhh, Slim,

Aren't ALL racers masochists by definition?

Just askin' . . . .   :-D

 :cheers:
Sadisticengineerboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein