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Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 2233617 times)

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Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5805 on: April 03, 2016, 07:43:58 AM »
Quote
And the combustion chamber is formed in the piston

and what a good idea that turned out not to be......

Quote
to basically improve the combustion, it's a very lively combustion chamber

Too right it's a very lively combustion chamber, it's moving up and down like a a a, piston

G

Yes, unfortunately, British engine designers of the mid 60's, including Hassan & Duckworth, became enamored with the efficiency of 2 valve "Heron head" diesel designs.

And then they made the "assumption", that those efficiencies could be transferred to gasoline burning designs.    Cosworth, Ford and Jaguar, as well as others, all had designs that featured the flat faced "Heron head".    An embracing of 1950's technology at its' best.     Although they could be made "workable", they were never as efficient as predicted.    The Cosworth SC series ended up being a huge disappointment in performance.

The downfall of all of these engines?    Inefficient combustion at compression ratios tolerable for gasoline.     Ie:  about half of what is used in diesel (compression ignition) designs.     The large amounts of ignition lead required to achieve "reasonable" power output, reduced the mechanical efficiency of these examples.

Like a lot of other "turd" engine designs, the Heron head can be made to work.    The formula for success is:

A/    LOTS of static compression
2/    Direct fuel injection
d/    and/or a "blower"

Sounds like the perfect Land Speed Racing engine to me.

Saaay, what class would the Midget be in if it was powered by a 1000cc blown diesel Heron headed Ford or Cosworth?    I have pistons for the Cosworth and 2/3 Ford heads.   I'm sure I also have a 1 liter Ford block, a crank, rods, dry sump kit, etc, etc   . .  . . . . . . .

Or maybe an Austin Mini pickup truck diesel powered?   We could race against Steve and the rest of the Salty Frogs.   (Although I don't think they are French . . . . .)

HEEEY!!!!   I just remembered!!!!!!    BMC made a 'B' series diesel!!!!!!    PERFECT!!!!!!    Now that's a REAL turd!!!!

Buuut, perhaps I'm getting too far out of the barn here . . . . . . .

I'm gonna get a Dr. Pepper and make an attempt at awakening.     Oh yeah, first week of April with a waning moon . . . . . .

 :cheers:
Notquiteawakeboy
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 07:48:28 AM by fordboy628 »
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5806 on: April 03, 2016, 10:26:28 AM »
BMC also made an A-series diesel for marine applications.

What a fun project that could be.

Mark, you'd look good behind the wheel of a 1 liter Mini Ute rolling coal.

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline gearheadeh

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5807 on: April 03, 2016, 12:16:45 PM »
I beleive that the "LUCAS" distributor used a stock GM HEI component, perhaps that is why it worked for so long...... :dhorse:
40 is the old age of Youth, 50 is the young age of the Senior years.

Offline Dr Goggles

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5808 on: April 03, 2016, 08:37:30 PM »

I'm gonna get a Dr. Pepper and make an attempt at awakening.  
:cheers:
Notquiteawakeboy

what the, do people actually drink that stuff?  bleuuuuugghhhh :-o
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Online manta22

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5809 on: April 03, 2016, 08:58:34 PM »
At 10- 2& 4  :cheers:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline salt27

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5810 on: April 03, 2016, 09:14:58 PM »
Touche, Neil.   :cheers:

I don't drink it any more but that was a clever response.   :-D

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5811 on: April 03, 2016, 10:35:48 PM »
The Triumph Bonnevilles like I race (2001 through 2015)  have dual overhead cams with bucket followers.  The new ones have rocker arms and a single overhead cam like that jaguar motor. 

Offline Jack Gifford

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5812 on: April 04, 2016, 12:01:08 AM »
... Like a lot of other "turd" engine designs, the Heron head can be made to work.    The formula for success is:

A/    LOTS of static compression
2/    Direct fuel injection
d/    and/or a "blower"...
???

I'm no expert on engine designs, but have no gripes about Heron-head configuration. The not-modern (1982) Moto Guzzi V50 I ride is far from a "turd". It doesn't have "LOTS of static compression" (less than 11:1), no direct fuel injection, and no blower, and doesn't use an inordinate amount of ignition timing. HP peaks at 49, with very usable torque across a wide band.

My other Heron-head vehicle (1917 Buick D35, 170 c.i. OHV four) doesn't make terrific power (at 4.4:1 C.R.) but I can't complain about its performance.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 12:02:49 AM by Jack Gifford »
M/T Pontiac hemi guru (or does guru status expire after 30 years?)

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5813 on: April 04, 2016, 07:45:12 AM »
... Like a lot of other "turd" engine designs, the Heron head can be made to work.    The formula for success is:

A/    LOTS of static compression
2/    Direct fuel injection
d/    and/or a "blower"...
???

I'm no expert on engine designs, but have no gripes about Heron-head configuration. The not-modern (1982) Moto Guzzi V50 I ride is far from a "turd". It doesn't have "LOTS of static compression" (less than 11:1), no direct fuel injection, and no blower, and doesn't use an inordinate amount of ignition timing. HP peaks at 49, with very usable torque across a wide band.

My other Heron-head vehicle (1917 Buick D35, 170 c.i. OHV four) doesn't make terrific power (at 4.4:1 C.R.) but I can't complain about its performance.

My comments were about the "Heron head" as a "racing engine".     The racing designs using this head type were never "outstanding", only passable.

On the other hand, as you point out, and I agree, heron head designs can be very "workable" at "street performance" levels.   The examples you have listed, plus the following:

A/    Ford 1600 Kent uprated as supplied in millions of Cortinas and Pintos
2/    Ford Essex V-4  and V-6
d/    Jaguar V-12
z/    Rover 2000,   as well as many others . . . . . .

Plus:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heron_cylinder_head

Yes, I agree, it is workable.    I just do not want to use the design for a full out racing engine.    It is a poor choice for that application, in terms of bhp/liter produced.


How is the work progressing on your hemi?    Can't wait for the next installment of your developments.    I envy your machine work prowess and capability.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 07:57:51 AM by fordboy628 »
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5814 on: April 04, 2016, 08:13:43 AM »
At 10- 2& 4  :cheers:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Well played, Neil.

Oddly enough, a good mix with Triple Sec as well.

It's crazy what one drinks in college . . .
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline TheBaron

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5815 on: April 04, 2016, 10:40:36 AM »
I run a Heron head Moto Morini and Fordboy is correct…NOT a good design for racing…It is from the earliest days of OHV engine…Flip a flathead and you have a Heron,,,, then came bathtub chambered heads,,,then wedge,, then angled valves,,,,then hemi and pent roof  chambers….

 The Heron is great for truck engines as per the Chevy/GMC 348 engine that grew into the 409 engine…. Great midrange and good fuel mileage… However, the don't flow well at high rpm ..Mine falls right off a cliff ….Like one hp (2%) per 100 rpm past the HP peak

I'm working on improving it and it is a real hard challenge…. I chose it because it I knew I would not be able to quickly sort it out and I'd have a hobby for years here in retirement…..Be careful what you wish for…

Robert
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Offline Stainless1

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5816 on: April 04, 2016, 10:46:36 AM »
At 10- 2& 4  :cheers:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Well played, Neil.

Oddly enough, a good mix with Triple Sec as well.

It's crazy what one drinks in college . . .

DP n Rum.... Guys I worked with in OK drank that all the time.... yep all the time...  :roll:
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Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5817 on: April 04, 2016, 12:23:26 PM »
Fordboy said: "The large amounts of ignition lead required to achieve "reasonable" power output, reduced the mechanical efficiency of these examples." Any combustion chamber design that requires large amounts of ignition lead usually means inefficient combustion. That happens to include "true" hemis.

Rex
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Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5818 on: April 04, 2016, 05:38:13 PM »
BMC also made an A-series diesel for marine applications.

What a fun project that could be.

Mark, you'd look good behind the wheel of a 1 liter Mini Ute rolling coal.

Like I'd ever let that picture be taken . . . . . . . . . . .      :-D

 :dhorse:
Fordboy
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"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5819 on: April 04, 2016, 06:03:58 PM »
Fordboy said: "The large amounts of ignition lead required to achieve "reasonable" power output, reduced the mechanical efficiency of these examples." Any combustion chamber design that requires large amounts of ignition lead usually means inefficient combustion. That happens to include "true" hemis.

Rex

Yes.   Rex you are absolutely correct.

True hemis, beloved in the late 40's and the 50's, also have other shortcomings:

A/    The largest surface to volume ratio of any combustion chamber design.
2/    A very high included angle between the valve centerlines, limiting valve lift @ overlap.
d/    Very high "flowback ratio" (reversion) between ports.
z/    I'm sure there are other things I'm forgetting about.

On the plus side though:

B/    Valve size as a percentage of bore diameter can be very large.
3/    Port to valve angle and port to bore angle can easily be very workable.
e/    Depending on the designer's layout, large port diameters can also be easily workable.
y/    Plenty of room for that second (needed) spark plug.

C. F. Taylor's collegiate Internal Combustion text covers chamber design in depth.    Anybody wishing to get a better education on this subject should pickup his book and read up.    I do not remember any coverage of emissions from various chamber shapes, and that is certainly a consideration for street engines these days.   Oddly enough, efficient combustion chamber shapes usually have low emissions.     An efficient burn leaves very little left over.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein