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Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 2233748 times)

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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5745 on: March 21, 2016, 08:35:51 AM »
FB -

I'll call Noonan and figure out the procedure.

Rod length needs to be determined, unless we want to buy 'em unpunched and have them bored locally.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5746 on: March 21, 2016, 08:52:13 AM »
Part of what's really cool about being involved in this international sport is when friends from different walks of life can cross paths.

Brian Miller is the audio engineer for one of Milwaukee's most famous musical exports, the Violent Femmes.  I've worked with and for Brian on and off for better than 20 years.  I played at his wedding last October.

They're on tour this month in Australia, and with a few e-mails and text messages, I was able to make an introduction with the Melbourne Music Maven.

And they went guitar shopping . . .



ahh . . that Great Gretsch Sound . . .



 

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5747 on: March 21, 2016, 08:53:43 AM »
FB -

I'll call Noonan and figure out the procedure.

Rod length needs to be determined, unless we want to buy 'em unpunched and have them bored locally.

I'll dig out and post up the "proposed" dimensions later.    Time for some more decisions . . . . . . .

 :cheers:
Fordboy
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Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5748 on: March 21, 2016, 09:02:24 AM »
Part of what's really cool about being involved in this international sport is when friends from different walks of life can cross paths.

Brian Miller is the audio engineer for one of Milwaukee's most famous musical exports, the Violent Femmes.  I've worked with and for Brian on and off for better than 20 years.  I played at his wedding last October.

They're on tour this month in Australia, and with a few e-mails and text messages, I was able to make an introduction with the Melbourne Music Maven.

And they went guitar shopping . . .



ahh . . that Great Gretsch Sound . . .



I think the best thing about lifelong guitar players is their sense of propriety and decorum . . . . . . .    :roll:

"Never trust the man, man."

I suspect someone has been spending too much time with wombats . . . . . .
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5749 on: March 22, 2016, 09:45:32 PM »
Well, as I've said, "It's all a grand experiment."

I've been fighting to find a properly sized set of throttle bodies from the motorcycle world.  Stainless has offered up help, and I may still take him up on that, but what I'm discovering is that with bike TBs, a lot of the new stuff is actually bigger than what we're looking for, or set up in cast pairs, making a straight shot into the port on 88mm centers impossible.

Of course, Jenvey makes a kit for the K-series, but the units they make are intended for the 1800, and as we're trying to maintain good flow rate at almost half that capacity, finding the right part can sometimes be tough.

But I may have stumbled across it - I pulled the trigger on this set of 38 mm billet bodies, which are being drop-shipped below the cheddar curtain - hopefully on Thursday.  Even the owner isn't sure who made them, but the size is right where we want to be -

http://www.ebay.com/itm/dragbike-motorcycle-throttle-bodys-38mm-/191826771636?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=lvFWxZEUnce1wGHl3AOQniQzsFk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

I'm hoping Mark can flow them, which will give us a definitive up-or-down of the thumb.

They're set up for dual 14mm injectors, and oddly enough, I received two intake manifolds with the K, complete with two sets of 14mm Bosch injectors.  Had they said "Lucas", I'd have pitched them and not even tried to make them work, but these are used on a few other domestically available applications.  If they're adequate, I'm inclined to try to make 'em work -

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-Injector-0280155884-Impedance-Brand/dp/B013H37X6A

At this point, I'm not sure I want to run dual injectors, and am inclined to simply plug the injector bung that won't be used, but this does give us options, provided they flow sufficiently to meet the demands of the K1K.


 
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline jacksoni

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5750 on: March 22, 2016, 10:20:19 PM »
MM- I am sure you know but there are for sure two and I think 3 different lengths of that type of injector as well as two different connector (maybe more) types. Be sure of your fuel rail placement to be sure they fit. The ones you show are the "long" type. The picture of the manifold suggests shorter. Also of course, the impedance must match your ECU. Some will run either high or low with switch/software/jumpers etc. High impedance more common with recent ECU types but obviously that needs attention. I am sure you know all this but worth reminder. Spray patterns can also be a factor to think about. Mark will have ideas about that I am sure. Injector placement as well. You mention has two  bungs. You don't need two injectors for flow reasons and doubles might be tough to get small enough with the small engine anyway to control. But placement one hole or the other may have advantages. Dyno.... :-)
Jack Iliff
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Offline Interested Observer

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5751 on: March 22, 2016, 10:22:20 PM »
Have been missing for a while since my browser croaked.
Back to the liner..  Attached is a pdf of a possible liner cross-section that has a couple features for consideration.  The O-rings seem to me a better seal than epoxy, which would be kind of messy and may not fare well with all the thermal gyrations that it is liable to see.  And would be easier to remove.  Also, not shown, the lower section below the O-rings could be slightly relieved down to a band at the bottom that would go back to a close fit to retain some sleeve stability.

The increased landing shoulder would allow more confidence that the liner wouldn’t just shear off the minimal block shoulder and begin to sink.  However, the whole vertical dimensional stackup from the shoulder to the top surface is a bit worrisome due to the differential expansion rates and the currently proposed 1mm thick and stiff head gasket with only 0.001” of sealing compound on each side.  A more resilient seal would be nice.  Keeping the water and combustion chamber both sealed at the same time may be a challenge.  Head clamped to the liners and highly resilient water passage seals?  Possible use of shims on the landing shoulder to adjust stackup?  All this assuming steel liners.  Aluminum with coating may fall into Fordboy’s discouraged R&D exercise category.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5752 on: March 23, 2016, 12:04:16 AM »
MM- I am sure you know but there are for sure two and I think 3 different lengths of that type of injector as well as two different connector (maybe more) types. Be sure of your fuel rail placement to be sure they fit. The ones you show are the "long" type. The picture of the manifold suggests shorter. Also of course, the impedance must match your ECU. Some will run either high or low with switch/software/jumpers etc. High impedance more common with recent ECU types but obviously that needs attention. I am sure you know all this but worth reminder. Spray patterns can also be a factor to think about. Mark will have ideas about that I am sure. Injector placement as well. You mention has two  bungs. You don't need two injectors for flow reasons and doubles might be tough to get small enough with the small engine anyway to control. But placement one hole or the other may have advantages. Dyno.... :-)

IF . . . the length works with the TBs, and IF . . .the spray pattern is right, my thought is that they'll provide adequate fuel for the 1K.  It's the same injectors Rover used on the 1.8, which produced 136 hp in street tune.  I scavenged the connectors.

As to the fuel rail, bungs and clips, I'm looking at Electromotive for that.

http://electromotive.com/product-category/accessories/fuel-components/

I'm taking them with me tomorrow to test the impedance and to assure the coils are not open or shorted.  I have a wave form generator at work, and I'm thinking I can put a low voltage square half-wave signal across the leads to make sure they're actuating.  If I can get it between a high "C#" a high "D", that's about 9 k rpm at the crank.  Should be audible.  If the note doesn't correspond with the input frequency, then there's likely a problem.

As to placement, I'm thinking our best bet would be to use pre-existing engineering as a jumping-off point - provided these injectors can be made to correspond to the angles Jenvey and Rover have already designed -

http://www.jenvey.co.uk/images/stories/virtuemart/product/mr08n_d.pdf

Have to do some measuring, and if they're unworkable, back up on eBay they go.

IO - THANKS for that drawing.  I took to heart your question regarding the ARP studs, and wrote the manufacturer - correspondence as follows -

Me -

I have a question regarding the stud kit used in the Rover K-series engine, kit #206-4209.

Looking at the specs and judging by the thinness of the cylinder block, girdle and head - all of which are held together by these extra long studs - I'm questioning the instructions indicating 50 lb-ft of torque. That number would coincide with 75% yield on the stud, but is it indeed a recommended torque setting for this application? It's almost 12,000 lbs of bolt load.

Are there any notes in your files regarding this application? Thanks.


Them -

"The notes for this application state to torque the nuts to 50 ft. lbs with the ultra torque lubricant."

Me, again -

"I already have the stud kit, I intend to use them, and I appreciate your response, but to better focus the nature of my question, let me ask this.
  
 Is this information you have regarding the torque setting based upon an actual build of this engine, or on engineering information regarding the strength of the studs?  It's a nuanced question, but critical, because it's not clear that this block - a sandwich construction where the studs pass through the head, the block, the girdle and are anchored in the oil rail - will withstand this type of clamping pressure.
  
 If the settings are not based on an actual build, what is the criteria on which the torque setting is based?
  
 It's a picky question, but these blocks are not readily available in the United States, and I can't afford to trash this one."


Them -

"When we develop a head stud kit we bring a head and block into our r&d department. We start by testing an OEM fastener in our load cell to see what kind of load the bolt is producing. We then use that information to determine what material and what type of torque we are going to apply to the fastener to do one of two things,  depending on our goals for that fastener and kit. For example if we are seeing an issue with blown gaskets due to a clamp issue we are going to increase the clamp load appx. 5-10% over what the factory bolt provides. Or (in some instances with torque to yield bolts that provide a lot of clamp load) we will duplicate the load but eliminate the TTY bolts. Most of the times we are choosing a material and a torque that will get to appx. 75-85% of yield for our fastener. The next step, and usually final step, is to test fit the studs to the engine, to insure we are not pulling threads, cracking blocks or extremely distorting the cylinder bore."

I want to believe that they actually shipped a K engine over to California, followed through on the procedure as described, and followed through on the development as they described.   But it kind of reads like blanket statement about their procedures and did not directly answer the precise question as to whether or not they actually put together a Rover K.  I don't want to harass them any further - they're product is the only viable replacement available - but Mark and I chatted, and we've determined we're going to procede cautiously and check any distortion issues before we head straight to 50 ft/lb.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 12:06:06 AM by Milwaukee Midget »
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline salt27

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5753 on: March 23, 2016, 07:06:41 AM »
Part of what's really cool about being involved in this international sport is when friends from different walks of life can cross paths.

Brian Miller is the audio engineer for one of Milwaukee's most famous musical exports, the Violent Femmes.  I've worked with and for Brian on and off for better than 20 years.  I played at his wedding last October.

They're on tour this month in Australia, and with a few e-mails and text messages, I was able to make an introduction with the Melbourne Music Maven.

And they went guitar shopping . . .



ahh . . that Great Gretsch Sound . . .



 



Is Goggs flipping us off?   :-o

Online SPARKY

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5754 on: March 23, 2016, 07:37:36 AM »
That was my assumption
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Offline jacksoni

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5755 on: March 23, 2016, 07:54:02 AM »
No problem with the flow amount. the 19lbs is right on for 80% duty cycle and 135hp. There are many in that range. I was looking more at that motorcycle TB that has fuel rails and injectors and the length. The Bosch EV1's wont fit that TB I don't think. The EV6 or EV14 which is what you showed should but as I said basically same injector comes in different lengths. Anyhoo, you've got it together. Do you have ECU system picked out (putting cart before horse here as don't have a block yet....)
Jack Iliff
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5756 on: March 23, 2016, 08:43:20 AM »
Is Goggs flipping us off?   :-o

He's just doing a version of his Rick Nielsen impersonation . . .


Do you have ECU system picked out (putting cart before horse here as don't have a block yet....)

If we only run 4 injectors, I'll likely go with the Electromotive TECs.  We used the XDi2 on the Midget, so I'm somewhat familiar with the programming software, and at least I'll know how to set up an advance curve.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline turborick

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5757 on: March 23, 2016, 07:18:11 PM »
Well, as I've said, "It's all a grand experiment."

I've been fighting to find a properly sized set of throttle bodies from the motorcycle world.  Stainless has offered up help, and I may still take him up on that, but what I'm discovering is that with bike TBs, a lot of the new stuff is actually bigger than what we're looking for, or set up in cast pairs, making a straight shot into the port on 88mm centers impossible.

Of course, Jenvey makes a kit for the K-series, but the units they make are intended for the 1800, and as we're trying to maintain good flow rate at almost half that capacity, finding the right part can sometimes be tough.

But I may have stumbled across it - I pulled the trigger on this set of 38 mm billet bodies, which are being drop-shipped below the cheddar curtain - hopefully on Thursday.  Even the owner isn't sure who made them, but the size is right where we want to be -

http://www.ebay.com/itm/dragbike-motorcycle-throttle-bodys-38mm-/191826771636?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=lvFWxZEUnce1wGHl3AOQniQzsFk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

I'm hoping Mark can flow them, which will give us a definitive up-or-down of the thumb.

They're set up for dual 14mm injectors, and oddly enough, I received two intake manifolds with the K, complete with two sets of 14mm Bosch injectors.  Had they said "Lucas", I'd have pitched them and not even tried to make them work, but these are used on a few other domestically available applications.  If they're adequate, I'm inclined to try to make 'em work -

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-Injector-0280155884-Impedance-Brand/dp/B013H37X6A

At this point, I'm not sure I want to run dual injectors, and am inclined to simply plug the injector bung that won't be used, but this does give us options, provided they flow sufficiently to meet the demands of the K1K.


 

Midget I have a very very similar set, my set was made by RB Racing about 20 years ago, just be careful doing business with them........
Rick Yacoucci

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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5758 on: March 23, 2016, 08:12:08 PM »

Midget I have a very very similar set, my set was made by RB Racing about 20 years ago, just be careful doing business with them........

It's my hope anything wrong with them is fixable short of having to go to the manufacturer.  Thanks for the heads-up!
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5759 on: March 23, 2016, 08:30:07 PM »
I know you can be too big with carbs, but I didn't think you could be too big with TB's.... I always thought you wanted to get the largest charge of A/F the motor would pull in and always thought that was done with the least restriction.
I know.... YMMV  :cheers:
Stainless
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MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.