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Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 2107006 times)

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Offline tauruck

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5700 on: March 10, 2016, 08:08:58 AM »
When we were that age girls wore stockings> :-D

Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5701 on: March 10, 2016, 01:49:52 PM »
........Millennium Technologies, the folks in the video, are in Plymouth, Wisconsin.......

MM..........They know their stuff..............ask for a tour.  My motor builder, Dave Murre.........Murre Salvage............has a shop account with them. If your in Plymouth...........be sure to stop at the brew-pub on Mill Street (downtown) and have a sample.......or three :cheers:  If its convenient, I could meet you at M-Tech .....or at the brewery :wink:

BTW.........I was thinking the active water-jacket on your block should curtail a great deal of your measured expansion.
2011 AMA Record - 250cc M-PG TRIUMPH Tiger Cub - 82.5 mph
2013 AMA Record - 250cc MPS-PG TRIUMPH Tiger Cub - 88.7 mph
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2018 AMA Record - 750cc MPS-CG HONDA CB750 sohc - 143.005 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc M-CF HONDA CB750 sohc - 139.85 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc MPS-CF HONDA CB750 sohc - 144.2025 mph

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Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5702 on: March 10, 2016, 02:03:31 PM »
Stainless, when you  (and I) were worrying about getting the girls out of their clothes -- pantyhose hadn't been invented.  Girls (at least where I grew up) wore fancy-striped or -patterned denim stockings -- and you weren't all that interested in what they were hiding, anyway - if you were smart. :cheers:

happy Birthday next week.  Wait 'til you hear about the gift I think I'm getting!! Whoo-hoooo!!
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Offline bones

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5703 on: March 11, 2016, 02:51:30 AM »
Millennium Technologies are probably the most common used cylinder platers in the US and have an extremely good name.

Every modern sports bike has nikasil or some other plating on the cylinder bores -- it is tough. Those 500hp Hayabusas use stock cylinders

Yamaha used to use hard chrome from the 70's in their 2 stroke production road racers-- the Porche was probably hard chrome.

Some of the Vincent guys are now using an aluminium sleve which is Nikasil plated instead of a cast iron sleve and shrunk into the cylinder

I don't think you would have any trouble with the plating, but will the sleve keep it's proper shape?

            cheers    Bones

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5704 on: March 11, 2016, 06:35:27 AM »
midget,

Molding compound arrived today.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
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Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5705 on: March 11, 2016, 06:52:48 AM »
midget,

This is the basic process for many Japanese and European engine blocks.   This is a short video, but there are several longer ones that pop up, showing the complete process of boring "away" the original surface, and replacing the bores with a sleeve set to increase displacement/whatever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrsUWh0Hs8c

Some use Darton (iron) sleeves, some use alloy sleeves with a Nikasil surface.

I think that both methods can be engineered to work properly.    I also think that you should gather some information about the cost of the 2 different sleeve types.   That might make the decision for you.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 07:03:54 AM by fordboy628 »
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline ggl205

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5706 on: March 11, 2016, 08:26:41 AM »
Broken rings do the Nicasil in from our experience with 2 strokes.
Expensive to redo. Guys found it easier to just buy new barrels.

Iirc there was a certain type of petrol sold in the UK in the 90's that also caused Nikasil to flake off as well? (High sulphur content?) so this may be something to look into if you are considering using this?

I think we may be mixing technologies here. Early Porches air cooled cylinders (both four and six cylinder high performance engines) used an aluminum barrel coated with Nikasil. It was a durable, long lasting coating that could be reused if no damage was present. High Sulphur fuel did not affect Nikasil but was hell on Alusil. Alusil is a high silica concentration aluminum alloy with other hard particles forming in the alloying process. The Porsche 928 V8 used this alloy for blocks and later used it in liners for water cooled flat six engines. Mercedes and BMW also used Alusil but in different ways. Mercury Marine used their version of Alusil called Merkasil for their low cost outboard engines. Mercury tried to prepare Merkasil by boring and brushing only and this did not work well at all. All versions of Alusil need to be prepared correctly or failures will result. Alusil is parent metal so you are not dealing with a coating here.

I almost forgot the Chevy Vega block. This was a bold venture into high tech hypereutectic aluminum alloy. It used roughly 18-20% silica and other hard particles forming during the diecast and cooling phase, not so dissimilar to how Mercedes Benz cast their version of Alusil. The Vega engine suffered many failures but not because of the Alusil. Rebuilders did not know how to prepare this alloy (Sunnen eventually had a workable yet messy solution) and had trouble because they employed cast iron methods to this alloy including using quick seater cast iron ring packs. To fix this, rebuilders pressed in cast iron liners and pretty much solved the problem. But I have seen Porsche 928 V8 blocks with over 150,000 miles and there was hardly any wear in the thrust side of the cylinders at TDC.

Earlier technologies Porsche used for their aluminum engine cylinders was a simple cast iron coating. This coating had a tendency to wear fast or come off the cylinder bore. These problems gave way to Nikasil.

The Jaguar issue with Nikasil was more of a masking and clean prep problem. The coating was applied just after boring and if memory serves me correctly, on the same machine that did the boring. Good idea but not in practice. BTW, Nikasil can be applied to almost any ferrous and non-ferrous metal. I was looking at it for cast iron cylinders years ago. The problem is getting it off if needed.

John  
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 05:50:57 PM by ggl205 »

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5707 on: March 12, 2016, 01:44:07 AM »
Thanks for that, John.  Seems that coatings ALWAYS work in race engines, but the minute you try applying the process to mass production, corners get cut and the next thing you know, the "Inbox" at accounting is full of warranty claims, and all those beans they thought they could save get ground up with the coffee the engineers are drinking at 2:00 AM trying to figure out how to hold on to their jobs long enough to keep their pension.

I downloaded Sketchup this week - a little wonky, but it lets you turn your work into jpegs, so here's a preliminary iteration of the proposed cylinder liner - material yet to be determined.

It is sans flange flats -

« Last Edit: March 12, 2016, 08:49:22 AM by Milwaukee Midget »
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Interested Observer

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5708 on: March 12, 2016, 10:52:13 AM »
OK, now, again, I’m a bit confused--but good to see the advancement to diagrammatic presentation..

The 5mm rib at the top was unexpected.  From the description in reply #5433, it sounded like the plan was to extend that large OD down to the level of the original shoulder, having re-faced the block shoulder to the larger diameter, creating a wider seat for the larger OD liner to sit on.  Otherwise, what is the point of the larger OD, just interface with the bolt bosses?   
Perhaps a cross-section drawing of the block/liner (and head and gasket?) interfaces would be useful for discussion.  I was going to do that for myself in order to sort out the load paths and dimensional stack-ups but haven’t gotten around to it. 
Also, it appears that there is some sort of seal at that shoulder to separate the coolant from the lubricant.  Is that so, and how about some elaboration on that issue?  As if you don’t have anything else to do!

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5709 on: March 12, 2016, 01:03:22 PM »
IO, to your points -

Yes, it's my thought that anything we can do to better stiffen up the block/liner combination would be in our best interest, thus the 5 mm rib at the top.  It will require flats, as we're 88mm on center with the bores.

Granted, we have considerable surface mating on the bottom of the liner - 79 mm deep into the crankcase - but if there is any shimmy of the head where it mates to the block and the top of the liners, having the block and liners tied together at both the top and the bottom would minimize the possibility of the block, the liner and the head creating sheer in 3 directions, and help limit it to only 2.

Additionally, there's not a lot of meat between the bores in the block, so any interference fit is going to have to be achieved cautiously.  The casting is ~4mm between the bores, so diameter "C" may need to be adjusted down to be no larger than necessary to achieve an interference fit in a clean-up of the block bore.

As to sealing the liner so oil and water do not mix, it's likely some sort of epoxy will be necessary - but if we're able to use aluminum liners, we minimize the different rates of expansion, and as deep as the bore goes into the block, maybe an interference fit might be sufficient?  I'm not sure.

As if you don’t have anything else to do!


Let me get a better handle on this program before I start delving into cross sectional diagrams and exploded views.  It took me 3 hours to get the cylinder right!

I DO have a lot of things to do - but I'd rather do this!  :wink:

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5710 on: March 12, 2016, 02:03:37 PM »
One other thing, I.O. -  By making section "B" 87 mm, we can still circulate some coolant around the entire top half of the liner.  As thick as it is, I'm thinking of cooling grooves through this section as well.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5711 on: March 13, 2016, 12:53:20 PM »
Thanks for that, John.  Seems that coatings ALWAYS work in race engines, but the minute you try applying the process to mass production, corners get cut and the next thing you know, the "Inbox" at accounting is full of warranty claims, and all those beans they thought they could save get ground up with the coffee the engineers are drinking at 2:00 AM trying to figure out how to hold on to their jobs long enough to keep their pension.

I downloaded Sketchup this week - a little wonky, but it lets you turn your work into jpegs, so here's a preliminary iteration of the proposed cylinder liner - material yet to be determined.

It is sans flange flats -



midget,

Just a reminder:

As we discussed with the Darton engineer at the PRI show, the "B" Ø must exceed the "C" Ø by 6mm or .25", whichever is more convenient.   I agree with Darton's assessment that the barrel "footing area" is too small (thin) to properly support the load applied, a shortcoming of the original design.    The minimum "footing area" that Darton recommended was .125" per side.   (Or 3mm [.118"] per side)    This is approximately double the stock dimension.   Take a good look at the barrel seats in the block to see how "indented" they were from the load on the barrels . . . . . .    Loss of pre-load there, is going to result in a loss of "clamp load" at the gasket interface, not a good thing.

At those dimensions I quoted, a "siamese flat" will need to be machined on the mating faces of each barrel, to fit in the 88mm bore center spacing, OR, the cylinders could be "contoured" ala a "French curve", in addition the required clearance flats @ the top and the bottom of the barrels.   "Coolant grooves" should be included in the design, Darton should use their greater experience to define size and placement.

Once again:  "Packaging is everything."

Run wild with Sketchup . . . . . . .        My idea of a "French curve:



C'est si bon!    NO flats there . . . . . .

 :cheers:
WishIspokeFrenchboy
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Offline 4-barrel Mike

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5712 on: March 13, 2016, 12:57:24 PM »
As above, but 2014:



Mike
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Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5713 on: March 13, 2016, 03:35:10 PM »
As I just know that Chris is on the verge of winning the Power Ball lotto, so based upon the potential of unlimited funds that will then be available, have you ever thought about making a 3/4 inch (19mm) thick dry deck plate that would separate the head from the block but most importantly provide a place where you could make some good 1/4 wide counter bores that you could then shrink the new aluminum sleeves into, plus it would strengthen the block and eliminate the somewhat minimalist head from having to do some structural work that it appears less than able to do.

Rex 
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Offline WOODY@DDLLC

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5714 on: March 13, 2016, 04:02:28 PM »
As above, but 2014:

Mike

Mike, please Google: resize picture!! PLEASE!  :-o
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