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Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 2259840 times)

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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5685 on: March 08, 2016, 08:10:21 PM »
You may be right in thinking about an aluminum sleeve with a hard surface coating on the bore. Do they make such a thing?
Rex

Nikasil

Okay, gears turning again -

Rex, IO, Don -

If it could be coated with Nikasil, could 6061-T6 be utilized for a cylinder?  :roll:

http://www.speedymetals.com/pc-4441-8370-3-sch-40-pipe-6061-t6-aluminum-extruded.aspx

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rn53m2-TNSo

Just thinking out loud . . .


"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5686 on: March 08, 2016, 09:47:58 PM »
Okay - using the same temperature setting as for the liners - maintain a constant as close as one can with a Fridgidaire oven -

Heated to an indicated 180 F -     

             Longitude      Width
1            3.320         3.318
2            3.319         3.319
3            3.319         3.318
4            3.319         3.318

Previous room temp 70 F   
   
                Longitude      Width
1            3.314         3.313
2            3.314         3.315
3            3.315         3.315
4            3.314         3.314

Today's lesson - GIGO.

The trick is recognizing garbage and not letting the compost heap get too hot.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Jack Gifford

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5687 on: March 09, 2016, 12:24:31 AM »
Perhaps: the concern about losing the tight block-to-sleeve fit with elevated temperature is somewhat offset by the fact that the heat generator (combustion and friction) is within the sleeve, and the sleeve may run significantly hotter than the block? I'm just pondering the fact that coolant temperature would typically be around 180, while temperatures in the cylinders would be much more than that.

My blown hemi has steel sleeves pressed into an aluminum block (only ~.002" interference fit) and I'm not aware of any block-to-sleeve movement problem, throughout a dozen seasons of competition (making approximately 900 HP). It does, however, use flanged sleeves, with the flanges sitting in counterbores in the decks- the O-ring grooves are in the flanges, so head torqueing clamps the sleeves in place- at least at their tops.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 12:26:32 AM by Jack Gifford »
M/T Pontiac hemi guru (or does guru status expire after 30 years?)

Offline salt27

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5688 on: March 09, 2016, 07:24:59 AM »
Chris, As far as Nikasil is concerned all I know is that I have been punishing my 11,500 rpm sand bike motor for over 10 years on the same bore.

The pistons are the consumable.

Gus cracked his cylinder and when I tried to cut it open for inspection the Nikasil wiped all the teeth off of my band saw, that stuff is hard.

I have no idea how it would work in your application but it works well for our bikes.

   Don

Offline tauruck

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5689 on: March 09, 2016, 08:45:00 AM »
Broken rings do the Nicasil in from our experience with 2 strokes.
Expensive to redo. Guys found it easier to just buy new barrels.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5690 on: March 09, 2016, 08:47:11 AM »
Perhaps: the concern about losing the tight block-to-sleeve fit with elevated temperature is somewhat offset by the fact that the heat generator (combustion and friction) is within the sleeve, and the sleeve may run significantly hotter than the block? I'm just pondering the fact that coolant temperature would typically be around 180, while temperatures in the cylinders would be much more than that.

My blown hemi has steel sleeves pressed into an aluminum block (only ~.002" interference fit) and I'm not aware of any block-to-sleeve movement problem, throughout a dozen seasons of competition (making approximately 900 HP). It does, however, use flanged sleeves, with the flanges sitting in counterbores in the decks- the O-ring grooves are in the flanges, so head torqueing clamps the sleeves in place- at least at their tops.

Good points - the top of the liner will be hotter than the bottom, but the iron will tend to transfer a lot of that heat toward the rest of the cylinder below, where it inserts into the block.  Undoubtedly less heat than your Hemi, and with the short stroke we're running, more of that heat will be concentrated in the top of the liner where the outside will be in direct contact with coolant, but yes, the bottom of the liner should see more potential for heat expansion than the block bores themselves.

We're looking to use a quasi-flanged sleeve to fit between the bosses at the top of the block to help stabilize that end of it.


Gus cracked his cylinder and when I tried to cut it open for inspection the Nikasil wiped all the teeth off of my band saw, that stuff is hard.



Been reading up on that stuff - only way through it is grinding.  Also read about the Jaguar fiasco using it for coating the liners of their early 90s V8s.  (Have you ever noticed the inordinate number of times the words "Jaguar" and "fiasco" appear in the same sentence?)  Seems the downside is that it's susceptible to sulphur.  I need to check ERC's components in their fuels.

Seems that with air cooled motorcycles and racing Porsches, where the heat gets really high, the issue doesn't exist.  In a water cooled engine, they don't get hot enough to burn away the sulphur, you get sulphuric acid and scored bores.  If the fuel is decent, shouldn't be a problem, and I'm certainly not going to extend a 3 year/36,000 mile warranty to the next owner . . .

I just need it to hold together long enough to bump the record.

Millennium Technologies, the folks in the video, are in Plymouth, Wisconsin.

I'm always looking for a reason to play hookie.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Hoody

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5691 on: March 09, 2016, 10:34:00 AM »
Broken rings do the Nicasil in from our experience with 2 strokes.
Expensive to redo. Guys found it easier to just buy new barrels.

Iirc there was a certain type of petrol sold in the UK in the 90's that also caused Nikasil to flake off as well? (High sulphur content?) so this may be something to look into if you are considering using this?

Offline salt27

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5692 on: March 09, 2016, 04:14:25 PM »
Our engines are water cooled 4-strokes.

We run non-ethanol pump premium and have not encountered any Nikasil flaking or other issues.

Offline Freud

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5693 on: March 09, 2016, 09:20:52 PM »
Driving my 356 Porsche to school in 1958 the Nikasil came off the cyls.

New barrels fixed it. Of course the trip was 3 miles each way. That
 
hardly got the barrels warm. Oh ya.........seasonally the winters would

drop to 10F-15F.  Nothing made these conditions ideal.

FREUD
Since '63

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5694 on: March 09, 2016, 11:14:50 PM »
Driving my 356 Porsche to school in 1958 the Nikasil came off the cyls.


I think I was born to late - I can't top that.

The closest I can come is loosing a fan belt on my MGB and buying a pair of pantyhose at the Seven-Eleven, tying them around the pulleys, then limping home to North Prairie from Milwaukee after bar time . . .

Lucas Murphy and I go back a long time.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Jack Gifford

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5695 on: March 10, 2016, 01:47:57 AM »
... Driving my 356 Porsche to school in 1958 the Nikasil came off the cyls...
Wiki says: "Nikasil was introduced by Mahle in 1967".  :?

Incidentally: Moto Guzzi motorcycles with Nigusil (Guzzi's tradename for "Nikasil by Guzzi") have collectively gone millions of miles since 1979. My '82 Guzzi runs great with close to 30,000 miles.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 01:53:06 AM by Jack Gifford »
M/T Pontiac hemi guru (or does guru status expire after 30 years?)

Offline aussievetteracer

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5696 on: March 10, 2016, 02:55:01 AM »
(Before I was married) I was driving home from a country dance here in Qld., OZ, with my then girlfriend when the fanbelt in my Cooper S died. I asked her "Are you wearing pantyhose?" Answer "yes"  I then said "Well you won't be in a minute- I'm afraid I need them" She fortunately thought it was a huge joke and happily volunteered them to the cause.
Denis

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5697 on: March 10, 2016, 06:34:43 AM »
Great line, Denis.  I'll try to remember it for the future. :evil:
Jon E. Wennerberg
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Offline Ron Gibson

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5698 on: March 10, 2016, 07:35:51 AM »
Part of the way doesn't always mean completion. :-D :-D

Ron
Life is an abrasive. Whether you get ground away or polished to a shine depends on what you are made of.

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5699 on: March 10, 2016, 07:47:39 AM »
(Before I was married) I was driving home from a country dance here in Qld., OZ, with my then girlfriend when the fanbelt in my Cooper S died. I asked her "Are you wearing pantyhose?" Answer "yes"  I then said "Well you won't be in a minute- I'm afraid I need them" She fortunately thought it was a huge joke and happily volunteered them to the cause.

Why didn't I think of that to get a girl's pantyhose off when I was 17....
where did I put that Dodge time machine....  :cheers:
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.