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Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 2237919 times)

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Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5580 on: February 17, 2016, 09:50:48 AM »
midget,

I volunteer my letter/number stamp sets for labeling the torque plate.

You supply the BFH.   And the beer . . . . . . .   :-D

I'm thinking that some sort of steel "spacers" will be required to use the ARP stud kit with the plate.    I think that they will need to be fitted above the plate to compensate for the "grip length" of the studs.

 :cheers:
Fordboy

Correct, and I've got both the number stamps and the BFH. 

And some sausage smoke infused Bock made specially in small batches for Gene's Sausage shop in Lincoln Square.

It's like bangers and mash in a bottle without the gravy.

Mmmmmm,   Bock . . . . . . . . .    :wink:

Soon to be doppelbock season . . . . . . .   yummmm.

Can anybody over on the "Continent" confirm whether the Henniger (?) brewery is still in business?    They used to produce a variety labeled Henniger 'DoppelBock' . . . . . .  and it is the brew that set me on "the dark path" . . . . . .

 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Darthvaderboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5581 on: February 17, 2016, 09:55:31 AM »
Just to add to the straying that is common in this thread....

One of our local breweries made a bacon beer for bacon fest last year.... not really a crowd favorite...  :|

OK back to business... fitting the new 61-135 bullet into the 61-99 chamber...  :-D

Mmmmm . . . .    bacon    yuummmm.

A sole reason for not being a vegetarian . . . . . . :roll:

Although, I might need to revise my thinking if I ever need a heart valve replacement . . . . . . . . .

 :cheers: :cheers:
HopeIdon'tgettheswinefluafterthatboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5582 on: February 17, 2016, 10:03:09 AM »
Mark... my cousin has had a "Pig Valve" for the last dozen or so years... he doesn't feel like a cannibal when he consumes pig products.... he loves his pig parts  :-D

 :cheers:
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5583 on: February 17, 2016, 11:53:06 PM »
Mark... my cousin has had a "Pig Valve" for the last dozen or so years... he doesn't feel like a cannibal when he consumes pig products.... he loves his pig parts  :-D

 :cheers:

An old saying about pigs - my mother's uncle always reiterated . . .

"They sell everything but the squeal - but they're working on that."

Speaking of valves - I understand a shipment from Great Britain arrived below the cheddar curtain today, and are destined for the flow bench at T&T.

I'm bracing myself for some decisions, as we're expecting a large "data dump" any day now.

Also, I've been in contact with Alex, Bill and Vadim at Sensor Products.  We chatted at PRI.  They make a test film that you place between mated surfaces and it changes color as you apply pressure.  Different color shades indicate pressure applied - kind nifty, I think.   Disassemble, and the film becomes a color-coded road map of where clamping pressure is greatest or where the surfaces aren't quite flat.  It's kind of like a cross between Plastigage and Litmus Paper.

Given what we're attempting to do, I'm thinking it might be a good double-check of the "Dagwood Sandwich" block before and after we perform the machining operations.  
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 11:55:26 PM by Milwaukee Midget »
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5584 on: February 18, 2016, 05:48:31 AM »

Speaking of valves - I understand a shipment from Great Britain arrived below the cheddar curtain today, and are destined for the flow bench at T&T.

I'm bracing myself for some decisions, as we're expecting a large "data dump" any day now.


Why, YES, it is so.

So much for the stinkin' Royal Mail,  the package arrived via the trusty "Brown Shirt Santa" . . . . . . .





Does that pile of 21-4N look like $580.00 to anybody else?



"Brown Shirt Santa"?

Daddy, does that mean Santa is a Fascist?       No son, but he might vote for Donald Trump . . . . . . . . .

 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Tofu

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5585 on: February 18, 2016, 05:51:39 AM »
midget,

I volunteer my letter/number stamp sets for labeling the torque plate.

You supply the BFH.   And the beer . . . . . . .   :-D

I'm thinking that some sort of steel "spacers" will be required to use the ARP stud kit with the plate.    I think that they will need to be fitted above the plate to compensate for the "grip length" of the studs.

 :cheers:http://www.taverntrove.com/items/Henninger-Doppelbock-Labels-Henninger-Brauerei_51156.php
Fordboy

Correct, and I've got both the number stamps and the BFH. 

And some sausage smoke infused Bock made specially in small batches for Gene's Sausage shop in Lincoln Square.

It's like bangers and mash in a bottle without the gravy.

Mmmmmm,   Bock . . . . . . . . .    :wink:

Soon to be doppelbock season . . . . . . .   yummmm.

Can anybody over on the "Continent" confirm whether the Henniger (?) brewery is still in business?    They used to produce a variety labeled Henniger 'DoppelBock' . . . . . .  and it is the brew that set me on "the dark path" . . . . . .

 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Darthvaderboy

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5586 on: February 18, 2016, 06:03:34 AM »
midget,

All set up to "baseline" the second head today @ T & T.

4 of the pile of 21-4N valves are REC's finest offering for the K in slight (1.5mm) oversize.    After the head is baselined, I'll cut the seats in one chamber for the O/S valves.   Then it will be up for a retest to document any gains or losses.   I'm also going to modify the Subaru valves for another comparison test in another chamber.   Those valves will be more heavily "tulipped".   The winning profile gets the 135 mph ride, hopefully.

Some photos of the valve profiles.

Stock exhaust and REC equivalent


Stock intake and REC equivalent



I'll post some more photos later.    The modified Subaru valves and some Cosworth BDD valves of similar size to the REC for the K.

Gotta go.  Time to load up and hit the road.

 :cheers:
Flowtestboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5587 on: February 18, 2016, 06:20:27 AM »
midget,

I volunteer my letter/number stamp sets for labeling the torque plate.

You supply the BFH.   And the beer . . . . . . .   :-D

I'm thinking that some sort of steel "spacers" will be required to use the ARP stud kit with the plate.    I think that they will need to be fitted above the plate to compensate for the "grip length" of the studs.

 :cheers:http://www.taverntrove.com/items/Henninger-Doppelbock-Labels-Henninger-Brauerei_51156.php
Fordboy

Correct, and I've got both the number stamps and the BFH. 

And some sausage smoke infused Bock made specially in small batches for Gene's Sausage shop in Lincoln Square.

It's like bangers and mash in a bottle without the gravy.

Mmmmmm,   Bock . . . . . . . . .    :wink:

Soon to be doppelbock season . . . . . . .   yummmm.

Can anybody over on the "Continent" confirm whether the Henniger (?) brewery is still in business?    They used to produce a variety labeled Henniger 'DoppelBock' . . . . . .  and it is the brew that set me on "the dark path" . . . . . .

 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Darthvaderboy

Thanks for the link to the label.     I'm just starting with my collection of Beer related collectables.

But, mostly, my focus is still . . . . . . Consumption!!

I'm amazed at how much smarter I get after consuming 2/3 high ABV brews!!!    :roll:

Ohhh wait.   I drink it for the "taste".    OK, now I'm remembering.    Just took a second there.

 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
ButhoneyI'veonlyhadoneindogbeersboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5588 on: February 18, 2016, 11:21:43 AM »


Stock exhaust and REC equivalent


Stock intake and REC equivalent



Flowtestboy

Quick thought - do either of these valves have dished heads?  As what we're looking to do is to maximize compression ratio, and as the valve face also effects flow, if they are dished, do you have some putty to replicate a flat faced valve for testing?
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5589 on: February 19, 2016, 12:58:00 AM »
midget,

OK, no graphs or charts, just some quick info, and a comment about what should be obvious.

Got the 2nd head base-lined, all 4 cylinders, as a direct comparison to the first head.   The results, of which I'll post some graphs, at some later point, are:

1/   The inlet ports are slightly better, ~ 1% or so.   The shape of the curve is pretty much the same.
2/   The exhaust ports though are worse, ~ 8%.   A significant difference.

I'm not yet sure why the exhausts vary so much.  I ground these valves before testing, so the margins are thinner, but I'm not convinced that is the difference.   I'm going to have to carefully measure the port's mcsa to try and get a handle on the difference.   So even though these heads are the same casting number, they might be from differing "batch lots".   I'm going to carefully check them over for production date codes, if any.    This would be a good question for Steve, how to "decode" any production casting codes.

If we had assumed the heads/ports were the same, (something I've seen done lately on some V8 heads by customers), there might have been gains from the mods, but the total flow might still have been lower on the exhaust side.    Leading to disappointment with the results.

I'm going to fit the REC valves to one chamber, and the modified Subaru valves to another and perhaps the modified Cosworth valves to a third.   Those choices, combined with potential increases in mcsa due to porting, should create enough permutations and confusion to require the portable cauldron to get sorted.

Today T & T's Serdi machine was tied up with other shop jobs.   I'm hoping it will be free today or early next week.   Since they work on a lot of Subaru heads, I'm hoping that the correct seat cutters are in their collection.   They do have the appropriate pilots.   I'll try to remember to get some photos of the work in progress.

Once again, proof that you need to test everything, rather than make assumptions.   It's the old "Trust, but verify" conundrum.    Thanks for the thought Woody.

 :cheers:
Flowtestboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline tauruck

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5590 on: February 19, 2016, 01:03:14 AM »
If you don't have a Serdi you ain't worth $^&t.!!!! :-D :cheers:
That's a machine.

Offline jacksoni

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5591 on: February 19, 2016, 07:01:18 AM »
midget,


1/   The inlet ports are slightly better, ~ 1% or so.   The shape of the curve is pretty much the same.
2/   The exhaust ports though are worse, ~ 8%.   A significant difference.

I'm not yet sure why the exhausts vary so much.  I ground these valves before testing, so the margins are thinner, but I'm not convinced that is the difference.   I'm going to have to carefully measure the port's mcsa to try and get a handle on the difference.   So even though these heads are the same casting number, they might be from differing "batch lots".   I'm going to carefully check them over for production date codes, if any.    This would be a good question for Steve, how to "decode" any production casting codes.


 :cheers:
Flowtestboy
Flowtestboy: though the 4 valve may behave differently and this head may be different, a lot of people seem to think that exhaust ports are TOO BIG to start with and that continually hogging them out and putting in bigger valves is counter productive. Some of this is to allow bigger intake valves ( making the exhausts smaller that is) but also just that the flow dynamics of the exh port and attached header/exh pipe can benefit by the smaller port/matching pipe. The flow may increase on the bench but what does the HP do? this is of course the question. In your experience with similar configurations, which I know is extensive,what do you think the 8% difference might do on a running engine? (my comments above are primarily associated with 2 valve v8s so may not apply at all) Just asking.  :-D ( methinks question answered with dyno time..... :evil:)
Jack Iliff
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5592 on: February 19, 2016, 08:15:17 AM »
Hmm . . . Casting core shift in the exhaust side, possibly?

Different exhaust guide shapes? 

One other thought - speculation based on what I've read.

Check the thickness of the head.  I know we're not talking vertical valves like on the A series, but according to Vizard, skimming the A-series head produces better flow by changing the shrouding.  If the original head was skimmed and the second head was not, and given the proximity of the valve to the edge of the flow adapter, perhaps that might be a reason.

Maybe?

Maybe not.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline ggl205

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5593 on: February 19, 2016, 02:51:21 PM »
If you don't have a Serdi you ain't worth $^&t.!!!! :-D :cheers:
That's a machine.

Well, the Newen seat and guide machine is worth more than a casual look but it is $100K +. Not many shops can spend that kind of money on a seat and guide machine. But it is the most versatile and accurate machine of its kind that I know of.

Serdi has a multitude of seat and bowl profile cutters. This will be your best bang for the buck and should see a noticeable improvement in flow.

John

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5594 on: February 20, 2016, 02:54:02 AM »
midget,

T & T's Serdi was tied up for most of the day Friday.    But the machine is open Monday morning, so I'm looking to cut the seats then.   I was able to get the balance of the other Subaru valves cut down and ground for a complete set of 4.

Below is the array of exhaust valve samples.
Left to right:  Cosworth BDD; cut down Subaru; stock Rover; REC o/s Rover




Some of the intake samples.
Left to right: stock Rover; REC o/s Rover; Cosworth BDD


With the dramatic differences in valve shape, I want to quantify which valve shape flows best in this cylinder head.    This is tough to predict because the Rover head has an inclined valve, but the port angle is ~ 90 degrees, similar to the BMC.

The over size diameter is only 1.5mm larger than the stock diameter, the max that can be fitted to the stock valve seat inserts.    Opening up the seats for larger valves will help with the mismatch between the seats and the cylinder head casting.    The mismatch between the seat insert and the cast port surface is what I would call serious.   The sharp edges are certainly "shearing" the air flow.

Speaking of "shearing" the air flow, part of todays flow testing was on some V8 heads that had larger valves installed and then some bowl work between the lower seat and the guide.    We tested both prior to, and after hand blending of some sharp edges.   There were some serious gains in flow from the blending.

I'll post up some graphs and data of the V8 next week, along with some more photos of the Rover valves and head.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein