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Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 2238025 times)

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Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5505 on: January 08, 2016, 06:43:18 AM »
Woody,
As usual your recommendations for good reading are extremely interesting and informative. Just a quick note on a engine that my good friend Steward Van Dyne just built for a USAC dirt car. The engine is 330 cu. in. and makes 800 hp at 8800 rpm and using the articles formula for EPC (Engine Performance Coefficient) it has an EPC of .551 which is 7.4% higher than the NASCAR engine and 2.8% higher than the F-1 engine! Not bad for an engine that drags a car around in the dirt!!

Rex

Rex,

Is the USAC engine mentioned above running on methanol?    Just curious.   That would need to be factored in Vs. engines running on gasoline, especially unleaded gas as used in Cup engines.    However, still very impressive output.    Your buddy obviously knows his stuff.   Can they keep it hooked up on the dirt?

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline jimmy six

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5506 on: January 08, 2016, 05:31:22 PM »
I know Stewart pretty well and the engines he builds. If it's for USAC on dirt and its not running methanol its at the back of the pack or didn't qualify. Just sayin'.......
First GMC 6 powered Fuel roadster over 200, with 2 red hats. Pit crew for Patrick Tone's Super Stock #49 Camaro

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5507 on: January 09, 2016, 01:40:48 PM »
Woody,
As usual your recommendations for good reading are extremely interesting and informative. Just a quick note on a engine that my good friend Steward Van Dyne just built for a USAC dirt car. The engine is 330 cu. in. and makes 800 hp at 8800 rpm and using the articles formula for EPC (Engine Performance Coefficient) it has an EPC of .551 which is 7.4% higher than the NASCAR engine and 2.8% higher than the F-1 engine! Not bad for an engine that drags a car around in the dirt!!

Rex

Rex,

Is the USAC engine mentioned above running on methanol?    Just curious.   That would need to be factored in Vs. engines running on gasoline, especially unleaded gas as used in Cup engines.    However, still very impressive output.    Your buddy obviously knows his stuff.   Can they keep it hooked up on the dirt?

 :cheers:
Fordboy

This motor is on methanol and the car has been pretty successful. It also has a pretty wide power ban carrying over 770 hp between 6800 to around 8000+. The BMEP of the engine at max power is over 240 psi. Stewart has the intake ports specially machined such that they are actually smaller than the head supplier would normally make, combined with the smaller displacement it keeps the intake velocity higher. 

A number of years ago Jack Roush ran 330 inch motors in NASCAR restricter plate races and was very competitive as he was able to operate at higher RPM even with the plate and the inlet velocities were lower through the plate orifice which allowed them to actually flow more air relative to the engine displacement. Once NASCAR found out about this they immediately made a rule for a mimum engine displacement of around 355 inches! So some times smaller can be better.

Rex
Rex
Rex

Not much matters and the rest doesn't matter at all.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5508 on: January 09, 2016, 02:43:36 PM »


A number of years ago Jack Roush ran 330 inch motors in NASCAR restricter plate races and was very competitive as he was able to operate at higher RPM even with the plate and the inlet velocities were lower through the plate orifice which allowed them to actually flow more air relative to the engine displacement. Once NASCAR found out about this they immediately made a rule for a mimum engine displacement of around 355 inches! So some times smaller can be better.

Rex
Rex

Yet another reason I can't stand NASCAR . . .
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5509 on: January 09, 2016, 03:35:56 PM »


A number of years ago Jack Roush ran 330 inch motors in NASCAR restricter plate races and was very competitive as he was able to operate at higher RPM even with the plate and the inlet velocities were lower through the plate orifice which allowed them to actually flow more air relative to the engine displacement. Once NASCAR found out about this they immediately made a rule for a mimum engine displacement of around 355 inches! So some times smaller can be better.

Rex
Rex

Yet another reason I can't stand NASCAR . . .

That's just a "brain fart", SOP in that organization.      "Brain dead" Brian strikes again this year.   You know, in order to "keep costs down" . . . . . .  and keep every engine guy's "hair on fire" . . . . . . .

It's just the cost of doing business in NASCAR.    And the reason why many guys walk away from it.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5510 on: January 09, 2016, 05:07:47 PM »

That's just a "brain fart", SOP in that organization.      "Brain dead" Brian strikes again this year.   You know, in order to "keep costs down" . . . . . .  and keep every engine guy's "hair on fire" . . . . . . .

It's just the cost of doing business in NASCAR.    And the reason why many guys walk away from it.

 :cheers:
Fordboy

Now I'm going the soapbox . . .

I realize NASCAR has become a "cult of personalities", and it's the drivers that generate the cash, but imagine how interesting a series it could be if the cars looked like something you could actually get at your local dealer, that the basis of the cars were the stock platforms, and a naturally aspirated variant of any engine by the same manufacturer could be utilized.   I think back to early 1970's Trans Am and NASCAR - George Follmer running what was obviously a Mustang, Richard Petty in a Satellite, or Mark Donohue in a Javelin or a Matador, and then I look at these BS bellybutton cars circling at Charlotte or Bristol today, and I just wonder, what idiot let Stock Car Racing get this far out of sync with reality?

Here's a decent example of a modified stock platform - Swede Savage's '70 Cuda.  Yes, it's not NASCAR, but the point I'll make is that while it's clearly a race car, so much of it remains stock or modified stock -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHXrGEO4GWM

There are guys building street driven Toyotas that will run heads-up with this Plymouth.  Is it unreasonable to think that the Mooresville Brain Trust can't build a production based race car better, and at a level that race fans would pay to see?

The argument I get is that NASCAR insists on a RWD Chassis.  THERE'S THE RULE YOU NEED TO CHANGE.

If Roush can get more horsepower with fewer cubes, the teams are smart enough to figure out how to make a FWD Stock Car work.  You can't tell me that Hendrick or Penske lacks the talent to do this.  And if they're looking to limit speeds, no better way than starting with a new chassis layout.  There's your level playing field - ground up development with a new sheet of paper, based on production designs.

Grrr . . . grumble, grumble, spit, cuss . . .

Okay, I'm climbing down . . .

Dodge modernity . . .
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 05:09:44 PM by Milwaukee Midget »
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5511 on: January 09, 2016, 05:25:50 PM »

Now I'm going the soapbox . . .

I realize NASCAR has become a "cult of personalities", and it's the drivers that generate the cash, but imagine how interesting a series it could be if the cars looked like something you could actually get at your local dealer, that the basis of the cars were the stock platforms, and a naturally aspirated variant of any engine by the same manufacturer could be utilized.   I think back to early 1970's Trans Am and NASCAR - George Follmer running what was obviously a Mustang, Richard Petty in a Satellite, or Mark Donohue in a Javelin or a Matador, and then I look at these BS bellybutton cars circling at Charlotte or Bristol today, and I just wonder, what idiot let Stock Car Racing get this far out of sync with reality?

Here's a decent example of a modified stock platform - Swede Savage's '70 Cuda.  Yes, it's not NASCAR, but the point I'll make is that while it's clearly a race car, so much of it remains stock or modified stock -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHXrGEO4GWM


Interesting soapbox choice . . . . . . . .

My buddy Andy Boone owns (might be used to own by now) one of the AAR Cudas.   If he still has it & brings it to Road America in July, would you like to be able to crawl all over it??   :-D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNG8Aj7DEic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oxaJVyNOLo

If he doesn't bring/have the Cuda, I can line you up to spec out his AAR McLeagle Can-Am.    I think he has been Vintage Champion once or twice.   And he has pics with Dan Gurney & Phil Remington.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO3-9SVJnoo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8Wr4Ifpocw

Ahh, if he lets you sit in it, you have to promise not to pee in the seat.

I await your response . . . . . . . .

 :cheers:
Fordboy
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 05:35:30 PM by fordboy628 »
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Interested Observer

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5512 on: January 09, 2016, 05:29:36 PM »
Quote
A number of years ago Jack Roush ran 330 inch motors in NASCAR restricter plate races and was very competitive as he was able to operate at higher RPM

Rex,
Are you sure this wasn’t just a ploy to get around the “gear rule”?  The plate allows the same air consumption, but a small motor would consume at a higher rpm--ergo better top speed potential.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5513 on: January 09, 2016, 08:24:05 PM »

Ahh, if he lets you sit in it, you have to promise not to pee in the seat.

I await your response . . . . . . . .

 :cheers:
Fordboy

I can't promise I wouldn't soil myself, but I sure would like to see it run.

But the AAR Cuda in Trans Am - particularly at Road America - demonstrates my complaint.  They were clipping at over 165 going down the Moraine Sweep into turn 5, and essentially catching everything it their windshield, but didn't handle as well as the Camaros or the Mustangs.  So the race turned into a true competition that put combinations - drivers AND cars - into play.

I contend that there's insufficient difference between today's NASCAR racecars to tell them apart, and swapping drivers or sponsors is likely the biggest change you can make between a Toyota, a Chevy or a Ford.  Seeing that almost - almost - all NASCAR drivers are at the top of the game, is it any wonder we see 497.5 miles of parade laps, with one lap of racing?

I want to see innovation in the trenches, not perfection in the pits.

Until then, I'll shovel the snow and tune in for the last lap.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5514 on: January 10, 2016, 03:11:05 AM »
Quote
A number of years ago Jack Roush ran 330 inch motors in NASCAR restricter plate races and was very competitive as he was able to operate at higher RPM

Rex,
Are you sure this wasn’t just a ploy to get around the “gear rule”?  The plate allows the same air consumption, but a small motor would consume at a higher rpm--ergo better top speed potential.


My memory might be incorrect about this but, I believe this happened prior to implementation of "the gear rule".   Roush was not the only guy to seriously "jack around" specs on restrictor plate engines.    I know about other displacement deviations, changes to firing order, cam lobe variations and crank style/type changes.    There were lots of "changes to specs" before Nascar wised up, and they were pi**ed off when they realized what was happening.   Jack had the misfortune to get caught when they were in a "punitive mood".

Although most Nascar types love to cultivate the idea that they just fell off the "turnip truck", or are just "fillin' in this weekend" and my regular day job is on "a chicken farm", there are some very clued in guys working on the cars and building the engines.    And they also have access to, or employ full time, a lot of "Brainiac types", whose only function is to do the math/physics or figure out some way to "game the rules".

Just sayin' . . . . . .
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline krusty

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5515 on: January 10, 2016, 10:08:52 AM »
Mark, I think you are correct; my recollection of the Roush "small displacement" plate engines was before the gear rule.

Also, is this the same Andy Boone  whose Corvette chassis I saw on the frame table at the Apex Humbuggery in the '70s?

If we have another Bonneville SpeedWeek, I'm sure we'll finally get caught up!

vic

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5516 on: January 10, 2016, 11:03:55 AM »
Mark, I think you are correct; my recollection of the Roush "small displacement" plate engines was before the gear rule.

Also, is this the same Andy Boone  whose Corvette chassis I saw on the frame table at the Apex Humbuggery in the '70s?

If we have another Bonneville SpeedWeek, I'm sure we'll finally get caught up!

vic

Vic,

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more certain I am about the incident taking place before the "gear rule".

Yes, the same Andy Boone.    His trick Corvette was my first "rule-bender" chassis.    John Timanus was so pi**ed, he tried to disqualify the car before June Sprints qualifying!!  That car seriously raised the bar in B/Prod and was eventually legislated out of SCCA B/Prod.    It was the first time I butted heads with Timanus.    He liked to think he was "even-handed", in the way all "dicktators" (intentional mis-spelling  :roll: ) think that they are.    Even though it satisfied the letter of SCCA law, Timanus saw to it that the car was judged illegal after it's first year of competition, because of all the competitor protests.    Just like Nascar . . . . . . .

As you recall the car was very trick.    In an era when most Corvettes could not make weight, that car had to carry 200+ pounds of ballast.    You'll need to buy if you want more details.    :-D

On the Andy note, he is the hardest working "rich kid" I ever met.   He has been a really good friend to me over the span of years.    He has done well for himself and I believe he is now living in Laguna Beach (?).

 :cheers:
Mark
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5517 on: January 11, 2016, 09:33:07 PM »
Home Made Hot Tank!

Took today off of work - I planned this before I discovered that it was likely going to be the coldest day of the Winter, but plans are plans.

I need to get this second head down to Fordboy, but I didn't want to do him the discourtesy of bringing down yet another greasy mess.  C&S has always welcomed my parts for cleaning/degreasing, but I came up with a rather slick solution.

I took one of my oil pan heaters -



Stuck it on the bottom of a steel wash basin, and filled it up with this odd, eco-friendly mineral spirits -



Between the solvent and the warmth, the grease and carbon deposits are just melting away.



Ah, a Morris Milk-bath!

There's a greasy old MGB head in the basement that will get the treatment next.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Speed Limit 1000

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5518 on: January 11, 2016, 09:49:16 PM »
You sure have a lot of great ideas :cheers:
John Gowetski, red hat @ 221.183 MPH MSA Lakester, Bockscar #1000 60 ci normally aspirated w/N20

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5519 on: January 11, 2016, 10:15:11 PM »
Here's the other part of your kit.  :-D :-D :-D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EH6atYydBc

Pete