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Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 2238047 times)

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Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5490 on: January 02, 2016, 01:08:22 PM »
Woody,
As usual your recommendations for good reading are extremely interesting and informative. Just a quick note on a engine that my good friend Steward Van Dyne just built for a USAC dirt car. The engine is 330 cu. in. and makes 800 hp at 8800 rpm and using the articles formula for EPC (Engine Performance Coefficient) it has an EPC of .551 which is 7.4% higher than the NASCAR engine and 2.8% higher than the F-1 engine! Not bad for an engine that drags a car around in the dirt!!

Rex
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Not much matters and the rest doesn't matter at all.

Offline bones

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5491 on: January 02, 2016, 04:12:12 PM »
Hi Midget
   Are these any good to you?    http://www.mrcycles.com/oemparts/a/kaw/50a639e4f870022c14fc4a23/cylinder-piston-s
Kawasaki has a family of engines GPZ 900R.  GPZ1000RX.  ZZR1100   Australian models
They are wet sleves and bore sizes 72.5.   74    76   The top flange is 8-10 wide. They use o rings to seal the water jacket
Any help?
    Bones

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5492 on: January 02, 2016, 07:45:52 PM »
Thanks, Bones -

The Kawi piece indicates a 80.6 mm O-ring, the OD where the barrel slides into the K block is 84 mm.

But, something like this could be a starting point - I'd have to be able to get some more dimensions on them.

My first thought is that they're likely too short, but then I don't know that it's necessary to go as deep into the crankcase if we're press fitting them, and if there's sufficient step width.

The step is 50 mm below deck height, overall height 129.5 mm, block bore, 84 mm.  We'll be needing about 90 mm max outside barrel dimension at the top, so depending on how thick the flange is, something like that might be doable.

Thanks for looking out for us - you've given me a new path to explore.  :cheers:
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5493 on: January 03, 2016, 06:06:42 AM »

Gentlemen Power Rangers, :-D

Kindly note the engineering exercises of engine design where one quickly learns that TORQUE is proportional to displacement and POWER is proportional to Piston area. Thus the best combination for best power configuration  for a given displacement will always be the largest bore and the shortest stroke. The stroke does not produce torque nor is it a torque multiplier unless it increases displacement. :-o :roll:

That should stir up an amount of comments that are in opposition to the factual statement above. 8-)

Regards to All and a Happy New Year as well. Stay safe.
HB2 :-)

PS - May a pox fall upon the Bureau of Land Mismanagement and may they feel the heat of my Congressman who will contact them happily in 2016. :cheers:


. . . the best combination for best power configuration  for a given displacement will always be the largest bore and the shortest stroke.  . . . That should stir up an amount of comments that are in opposition to the factual statement above. 8-)
Who would be so bold as to speak in opposition to you? What are some of the most extreme bore/stroke ratios in successful racing engines?

It would indeed be foolish to disagree with those who concur with the likes of C.F. Taylor, A.R. Rogowski, D.B. Kittelson, T.E. Murphy and HB2.   I consider myself a disciple.

Since the time I have first embraced the disciplines of logic, data and analysis, my results have been better, with less expenditure and less time lost to "side-tracking".


FB, others and I share a common mantra: "Compared to what?"  :-o
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/comparison_of_cup_to_f1.htm
Be sure to read down to the EPC definition. Most everyone is gonna be somewhere in between most of the criteria!  :cheers:
More than one way to skin a water buffalo and the water buffalo is not happy with any of them!  :-D

Here is some analysis I regularly use that supports both HB2's & Woody's positions.     Put on your beanie-copter caps, or engage other brain cooling methods . . . . . .

Readers will want to use their screen zoom feature to examine these spreadsheet segments more closely.    250% makes the spreadsheet readable for my eyes.   YMMV.
Does anybody know an easy way to enlarge a posted image from Photobucket so that screen zoom in not necessary?   I tried manipulating the image's pixel width and height, but it inserts in @ the default values.   Slim, maybe you can ask Bob the web elf?

The following image is the copyrighted intellectual property of Mark Balinski, dba as Dymaxion Design & Engineering, permission granted for individual usage only.   (You can thank my lawyer for the previous statement.)


OK, as you examine the first 3, "RPM Segments" readers will notice that the Bhp/Liter (& Bhp/cu. in.) vary because of the Bhp/Tq/Rpm formula.   Ie, Bhp/Liter, at any given Bmep development level, is directly proportional to rpm.   Confirming Sir Harry Ricardo's statement that: He who can modify his engine to take advantage of rpm, can benefit thereby.   Not sure that quote is exact, but close enough for demonstration purposes.

The 4th segment addresses my buddy Woody's statement:  "Compared to what?"    These are some comparisons of professionally developed engines, competing in World Class racing, where every development trick is used, and no expense is spared.   We are talking tens of millions of R&D dollars (or Euros, as the case may be) every year, and in many instances, parts fabricated from Space Shuttle materials.   The "average" professional with an "average" facility is not going to achieve those levels of development, let alone the average "enthusiast", the money just is not there.    BUT, there should always be development goals that achieve a level of "respectability" for a project.    Everybody gets to decide what level of "respectability" that they might embrace, and afford.   One of the considerations here should be: component reliability for a given stress level . . . . . . .   At not very elevated rpm levels, think: metal valve spring limitations. . . . . .

In the 4th segment, the columns I find interesting are:

A/   The calculated Bmep, both at peak Tq and peak Bhp, by itself, and compared to other engine types . . . . .
2/   The relative Bhp/liter . . . . . .
d/   Most interesting to me, Bmep % loss, from peak Tq to peak Bhp, over the operating rpm band . . . . . . .   indicating the aspect ratio of the curves . . . . . .

Readers might find other derivatives of interest . . . .   in all segments.

And, a deserved "Thank You!" to all of my mentors, but especially HB2.    Grátiás maximás tibí agó.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
« Last Edit: January 03, 2016, 07:11:09 PM by bobc »
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5494 on: January 03, 2016, 11:39:40 PM »
Thanks to whoever enlarged the image in post #5493 to a "more readable" size.

 :cheers:
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5495 on: January 06, 2016, 07:43:05 PM »
Parts are starting to trickle in again.  The uprated oiling ladder and head gasket kit arrived this week.  The old oil rail is at Podunk's to help him design the deck plate.  While I can't give you a side-by-side of the old and new, it's quite clear that this piece - the foundation of the sandwich - is substantially heavier than the standard piece it replaces.  The ARP studs call for 50 ft/lbs of torque - I've little doubt this piece will tolerate it.  25mm of 9 mm threads, and better load distribution through the girdle than the spindly, older unit . . .



Gaskets -

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline bobc

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5496 on: January 06, 2016, 08:25:23 PM »
Do y'all like the larger images?

Bob the Web Elf
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5497 on: January 06, 2016, 09:24:21 PM »
Do y'all like the larger images?

Bob the Web Elf

You just saved me a trip to the optometrist.

Bob, you're our hero!  :cheers:
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline bobc

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5498 on: January 06, 2016, 09:38:08 PM »
Wow, that was too easy for "hero-dom".  How about "good guy"?   :-D

Didn't know the pictures were a problem....

BtWE
Web Elf

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5499 on: January 07, 2016, 05:09:14 AM »
Do y'all like the larger images?

Bob the Web Elf

He** YES!!!!    I luv bigger images.

Thank you Bob.    Maybe now my graphs & spreadsheets will be read . . . .   :roll:

 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5500 on: January 07, 2016, 05:19:33 AM »
Parts are starting to trickle in again.  The uprated oiling ladder and head gasket kit arrived this week.  The old oil rail is at Podunk's to help him design the deck plate.  While I can't give you a side-by-side of the old and new, it's quite clear that this piece - the foundation of the sandwich - is substantially heavier than the standard piece it replaces.  The ARP studs call for 50 ft/lbs of torque - I've little doubt this piece will tolerate it.  25mm of 9 mm threads, and better load distribution through the girdle than the spindly, older unit . . .



Gaskets -



Way cool!!

How does the combination of ARP and new girdle fit up to the block and head?

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5501 on: January 07, 2016, 08:20:12 AM »
Way cool!!

How does the combination of ARP and new girdle fit up to the block and head?

 :cheers:
Fordboy

I didn't stack everything together, but I did check the thread fit into the oil ladder.  Comparing the studs to the used long bolts, the threads are clean and proper.  The long bolts were clearly worn.

Seeing as the twist will now be on the nut on the north end of the stud, rather than auguring into the oil rail, I'm liking the potential for proper clamp load. 
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline jacksoni

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5502 on: January 07, 2016, 08:32:32 AM »
Will be curious to see how many of those gaskets you actually use. I think on my engine I use one stock gasket (front cover) Rest are truly unobtanium or custom (copper head gasket). When I was originally building my motor 10 years or so ago, GM had a kit of parts for building a SD4 Pontiac motor. I got one of the last (according to the parts guy locally). Whole big box of stuff. Since I was starting totally from scratch and didn't have a base motor for the small stuff, a few things were used but most are still sitting on my shelf.....:)
Jack Iliff
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 G/GC- 176.245  2018
 G/GMS-182.144 2019

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5503 on: January 07, 2016, 08:50:50 AM »
Will be curious to see how many of those gaskets you actually use. I think on my engine I use one stock gasket (front cover) Rest are truly unobtanium or custom (copper head gasket). When I was originally building my motor 10 years or so ago, GM had a kit of parts for building a SD4 Pontiac motor. I got one of the last (according to the parts guy locally). Whole big box of stuff. Since I was starting totally from scratch and didn't have a base motor for the small stuff, a few things were used but most are still sitting on my shelf.....:)

I bought the kit to use the head gasket as a template for a copper head gasket.  The rest of the kit - intake, exhaust, valve cover, etc., came with it.  If I'm able to use them, great.  If not, no biggy, and the cost difference was minimal, once shipping was included.

But I needed the head gasket for certain.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline jacksoni

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5504 on: January 07, 2016, 11:07:30 AM »
Will be curious to see how many of those gaskets you actually use. I think on my engine I use one stock gasket (front cover) Rest are truly unobtanium or custom (copper head gasket). When I was originally building my motor 10 years or so ago, GM had a kit of parts for building a SD4 Pontiac motor. I got one of the last (according to the parts guy locally). Whole big box of stuff. Since I was starting totally from scratch and didn't have a base motor for the small stuff, a few things were used but most are still sitting on my shelf.....:)

I bought the kit to use the head gasket as a template for a copper head gasket.  The rest of the kit - intake, exhaust, valve cover, etc., came with it.  If I'm able to use them, great.  If not, no biggy, and the cost difference was minimal, once shipping was included.

But I needed the head gasket for certain.

:) Got it! Will continue to follow progress with great interest.
Jack Iliff
 G/BGS-250.235 1987
 G/GC- 176.245  2018
 G/GMS-182.144 2019