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Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 2238001 times)

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Offline WOODY@DDLLC

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5475 on: December 30, 2015, 08:27:01 AM »
there are an unusual number of LSR sick lemmings being led to a formerly dried up---- inland sea following this build  :-D

We be LSR lemmings!  :cheers:

Since there is no cliff, guess we'll just wander aimlessly forever?  :? :-D :-o
All models are wrong, but some are useful! G.E. Box (1967) www.designdreams.biz

Offline Ron Gibson

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5476 on: December 30, 2015, 10:03:29 AM »
And muttering to ourselves, "ONCE UPON A TIME".  :cry: :cry:

Ron
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5477 on: December 30, 2015, 12:25:14 PM »
NO CRYBABIES!  PRESS ON REGARDLESS!
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5478 on: December 30, 2015, 02:06:26 PM »
Chris, I 'spose you've been to Mark's garage, but since I don't remember seeing photos, would you, next time you're there, shoot some shots and let us know just what it looks like to have a garage that "looks like a goat exploded in it"?

I'm just curious, that's all. :roll:
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5479 on: December 30, 2015, 02:14:24 PM »
Chris, I 'spose you've been to Mark's garage, but since I don't remember seeing photos, would you, next time you're there, shoot some shots and let us know just what it looks like to have a garage that "looks like a goat exploded in it"?

I'm just curious, that's all. :roll:

I've only been as far as the beer fridge - I dare not proceed any further without spelunking equipment, a mining helmet, pickaxes and the aid of an experienced Sherpa . . .
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5480 on: December 30, 2015, 03:12:54 PM »
Unh,  Chris, don't Sherpas work on TOP of mountains, not under 'em?  As for spelunking -- unh, not for me -- and you're taller than I.  Public caves, like the Lehman Caves at Great Basin Park or Carlsbad -- yeah, but where you might have to wiggle through a scrunched little hole in the wall?  Unh, unh.  You, really?

But maybe then Mark will take a photo for us and make the explanation of his phrase known. :dhorse:
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Offline manta22

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5481 on: December 30, 2015, 05:25:38 PM »
Jon;

Hijack alert!

"Spelunkers" are "flashlight cavers"-- they get lost or hurt in caves. "Cavers" rescue "spelunkers".

I was a very active caver back in the '60s, mainly in WV where we had lots of vertical caves. I've been involved in a cave rescue; it's a nightmare. Everything takes forever and even the simplest things require tremendous effort. Hauling an injured person out of a cave is a major project involving lots of experienced cavers. One of the biggest threats to the injured person is hypothermia- over the time of his rescue his body temperature drops dangerously. In WV caves, the temperature is about 52 degrees with very high humidity. One thing you can always count on in a cave rescue-- the news media will get the story wrong.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ ex- NSS 7676
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline WOODY@DDLLC

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5482 on: December 30, 2015, 05:26:12 PM »
FB's goat ate too many lemmings!  :-o :-o :-o :-D
All models are wrong, but some are useful! G.E. Box (1967) www.designdreams.biz

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5483 on: December 30, 2015, 06:38:20 PM »
Sorry guys, no goat or lemming pics tonight, just pics on topic.    Ie, racing engine engineering.

midget, et all,

Below are output graphs of engines I engineered/built/machined/etc, a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away . . . . . . .

They are spaced out individually so you can use your screen zoom to enlarge them and keep the comments in order.   As per usual, readers get to supply their own brain cooling, if required . . . . . . . . :roll:

I'm more optimisty about the new Rover 4V being able to produce the goal Tq of 82/83 ft/lbs, now that I have dug out this info.    Several of these 2V non-crossflow engines produced ft/lbs of Tq in the mid 80's, with one exceptional example producing 86 ft/lbs.   Even one of the BMC examples produced 82 ft/lbs.   I believe all the examples are ~1098 cc's displacement.   The BMCs are 5 port, the Fords are 8 port.   I'll need to calculate the Bmep and V/E for the samples later, but the 99? cc Rover 4V should produce similar Tq, perhaps with a wider, flatter range.   Some of the graphed examples are pretty well developed though . . . . . .  Engines from my shop dominated North American Vintage Formula Junior back then.   We were probably the only shop doing any serious development on this side of the pond . . . . . .

BMC's ~ 1098 cc
1070 S based



Ford 1099 cc
105E based



Ford 1099 cc
105E based



Ford 1099 cc
105E based


Chris, this should allay your fears about 1 liter, short stroke engines not being able to produce enough torque.   The Ford based engines used a stroke of 48.4 mm, shorter than what is planned for the Rover.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
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Offline Podunk

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5484 on: December 31, 2015, 04:24:17 PM »
Chris,
Talk about a short stroke. I finally found the photo of the Bugeye when I bought it. About 1980.
Terry

Offline Harold Bettes

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5485 on: December 31, 2015, 05:41:54 PM »
Gentlemen Power Rangers, :-D

Kindly note the engineering exercises of engine design where one quickly learns that TORQUE is proportional to displacement and POWER is proportional to Piston area. Thus the best combination for best power configuration  for a given displacement will always be the largest bore and the shortest stroke. The stroke does not produce torque nor is it a torque multiplier unless it increases displacement. :-o :roll:

That should stir up an amount of comments that are in opposition to the factual statement above. 8-)

Regards to All and a Happy New Year as well. Stay safe.
HB2 :-)

PS - May a pox fall upon the Bureau of Land Mismanagement and may they feel the heat of my Congressman who will contact them happily in 2016. :cheers:

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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5486 on: December 31, 2015, 07:17:37 PM »
Harold, THANK YOU for making that call.

I suspect your Rolodex remains a damned powerful tool.

While the seminar at PRI didn't provide a lot of light to the travails of Bonneville and the work that's happening politically to correct the problem, I'm not so cynical to think that pressure from Congress and the Senate cannot be of value toward a plan to put the Speedway back to rights, or at least, make it usable.

Leverage doesn't always have to be in the form of a big crowbar - it can be effectively applied with a shitload of butter knives.

We'll wait for the plan, and hope it's workable.

As to the issue of torque and engine development, as always, I remain a student - and I intend to not just know, but to know why.

And I learn from history as well.

Goldie Gardner's MG utilized a very short stroke 1100 cc 6 in 1938 to push the car to 203 mph in 1939.

If we can keep the K screwed together, I think we're on to something with this one.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Online tortoise

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5487 on: January 01, 2016, 12:08:01 AM »
. . . the best combination for best power configuration  for a given displacement will always be the largest bore and the shortest stroke.  . . . That should stir up an amount of comments that are in opposition to the factual statement above. 8-)
Who would be so bold as to speak in opposition to you? What are some of the most extreme bore/stroke ratios in successful racing engines?

Offline Koncretekid

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5488 on: January 02, 2016, 07:07:50 AM »
. . . the best combination for best power configuration  for a given displacement will always be the largest bore and the shortest stroke.  . . . That should stir up an amount of comments that are in opposition to the factual statement above. 8-)
Who would be so bold as to speak in opposition to you? What are some of the most extreme bore/stroke ratios in successful racing engines?

If my math is correct, the above 1099cc Fords were 84.9 mm bore x 48.4mm stroke (bore/stroke = 1.75) and produced 125 hp according to Fordboy, for a hp per piston area of .55 hp per square cm of piston area and a hp of .114 per cc displacement.

Another extreme example is the Ducati Panigale 1285cc twin which is 116mm x 60.8mm stroke (bore/stroke = 1.91) and produces 205 hp for a hp to piston area of .97hp per square cm and a hp of .159 per cc.

We get too soon oldt, and too late schmart!
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Offline WOODY@DDLLC

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5489 on: January 02, 2016, 11:11:43 AM »
FB, others and I share a common mantra: "Compared to what?"  :-o
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/comparison_of_cup_to_f1.htm
Be sure to read down to the EPC definition. Most everyone is gonna be somewhere in between most of the criteria!  :cheers:
More than one way to skin a water buffalo and the water buffalo is not happy with any of them!  :-D
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