(Note: LANDRACING.COM donations are not tax deductible)


This is a public forum. The opinions expressed here don't
necessarily reflect the feelings of The Folks That Run The Site (that's us)
unless we explicitly say so, ok?


Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 2238043 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline fordboy628

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2283
  • Age: 4
  • Location: Koozebane
  • GONE FISHIN' . . .
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5430 on: December 16, 2015, 07:14:31 AM »
midget,

Might need to grab the clean head to measure port centerline dimensions.   Sent the request to Burns Stainless, hope to have a timely response.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline jacksoni

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1278
  • Age: 75
  • Location: Annapolis, Maryland
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5431 on: December 16, 2015, 12:33:55 PM »
Pipemax says:

1* pipe 1.079-1.204" OD x 19.9-22.1" long
Megaphone collector 1.563 taper up to 2.563: x 11.9" long.

Burns stainless has been quite good in my experience. You might get a call direct from Vince with specs. They will suggest (I think) a merge collector with megaphone to reverse cone tip. Be interesting to see how close to above.

I used 110VE- which may be low, 135mm rod (my memory, did not go way back to find the discussions on rod in the thread) and 9000rpm peak hp. Pipemax at this predicted in the 125hp + or - range. At 8500 was in the 116 range. Remember Pipemax is not a full up simulation program but one to help design the best header when you know specs and in fact have some data, such is VE%'s from dyno work.
Jack Iliff
 G/BGS-250.235 1987
 G/GC- 176.245  2018
 G/GMS-182.144 2019

Offline fordboy628

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2283
  • Age: 4
  • Location: Koozebane
  • GONE FISHIN' . . .
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5432 on: December 16, 2015, 03:51:16 PM »
Pipemax says:

1* pipe 1.079-1.204" OD x 19.9-22.1" long
Megaphone collector 1.563 taper up to 2.563: x 11.9" long.

Burns stainless has been quite good in my experience. You might get a call direct from Vince with specs. They will suggest (I think) a merge collector with megaphone to reverse cone tip. Be interesting to see how close to above.

I used 110VE- which may be low, 135mm rod (my memory, did not go way back to find the discussions on rod in the thread) and 9000rpm peak hp. Pipemax at this predicted in the 125hp + or - range. At 8500 was in the 116 range. Remember Pipemax is not a full up simulation program but one to help design the best header when you know specs and in fact have some data, such is VE%'s from dyno work.

Jack,

I couldn't agree more with you.   The "problem" with PipeMax is what I have been saying all along:   It is a "simpler", affordable program, which will spit out "any" results based on "any" input.   Without any experience for "reasonable input" it is easy to fool yourself.   As you stated, it should be used in parallel with dyno testing, which is what Larry advises.

My PipeMax simulation for this engine requires that I use 112% VE to get 125.0 bhp @ 8500.    This also gives a peak torque of 85.4 lb/ft, which corresponds to 212.5 psi, probably a tad high for a first iteration.   My target range for BMEP is ~205/210 psi @ peak torque, (82/83 lb/ft) coupled with single digit % torque loss @ peak bhp.    I also want to push peak torque down below 7000 rpm maybe as low as 6500 rpm, depending on how I can tune the int & ex tracts.

This thing is basically a water cooled bike engine.

I spent some time @ PRI with Vince, and I value and want to weigh his input.   I am counting on using a merge collector, as an exhaust "diode", to preserve low end torque while protecting top end bhp.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Milwaukee Midget

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6481
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Beerhaven, Wisconsin
  • After further investigation, I/GT record holder
    • Milwaukee Midget Racing
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5433 on: December 16, 2015, 10:07:01 PM »
After PRI, Fordboy and I talked about getting this gum wrapper block stiffened up.  The plan hatched was to go with oversized barrels, press fit them into place with a larger diameter at the top and machine the step to achieve a wider stabilizing ledge for the barrels deeper in the crankcase.

Unfortunately, if we are going to make that work, it looks as though we'll need to siamese the barrels.



"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline jacksoni

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1278
  • Age: 75
  • Location: Annapolis, Maryland
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5434 on: December 17, 2015, 09:22:56 AM »
Back when I was playing with N/A and then blown Cosworth Vega's I did a similar thing with some custom made sleeves with a heavy (.500") thick top that became part of the deck with a double step down to some OD that I forget with a 3.500" bore. The top flange was somewhat greater in diameter than the bore spacing so between the sleeves they had to be cut down (siamesed) to fit. Once the sleeves settled in and in conjuction with a nice heavy main girdle block plate, I never had a block failure that was just a strength/structural issue. Detonation or lack of oiling  and turbo failures did some damage but the block per se never failed. Have no real clue how much power it made but was shifting at 9000, through traps at something over 8k with 18lbs boost. I am sure with tuning and development would have made more. I know it went in the 285range out the back of the middle mile on my best ever run.

With the open deck architecture of the Vega, the sleeve tied the bores and the outside of the block together to stiffen everything. It will help keep stuff straight and square, IMO>
Jack Iliff
 G/BGS-250.235 1987
 G/GC- 176.245  2018
 G/GMS-182.144 2019

Offline Milwaukee Midget

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6481
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Beerhaven, Wisconsin
  • After further investigation, I/GT record holder
    • Milwaukee Midget Racing
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5435 on: December 17, 2015, 10:04:22 PM »

With the open deck architecture of the Vega, the sleeve tied the bores and the outside of the block together to stiffen everything. It will help keep stuff straight and square, IMO>

Jack, I'm convinced you're right.  Simply using the compression of the long bolts to hold things together is in no way going to provide the kind of stability I want in a racing engine.  GM gave up on with the Vega - unfortunately, Rover lacked the resources to start with a clean sheet of paper.

Our discussions at PRI led us to the proposition of skipping the MLS gasket arrangement as well - for 2 reasons.

1 - The high performance MLS gasket available for the K is designed for both the 1.6/1.8 engine, which have 80 mm bores.  This gives away too much compression in a 1 liter with 75 mm bores.  It's a battle we've been through before, and we're not retaking that hill again.

2 - We've decided to O-ring the cylinders and put a retaining grove in the head.  This will give us better control over the volume of the chamber and a better method to lock into place the positioning of the head.  With the liners pressed into place and any positioning issue resolved, a thinner copper gasket - thinner than the stock gasket - can be used.  At that point, we'll be looking at sealing off the oil and water passages between the block and the head with O-rings.

Toys are arriving.  The junk head arrived from Germany yesterday.  The bearing journals are mucked up, but we're using this to experiment with flow and porting.  It wasn't cheap getting it here, but it's here.

Podunk is on the case whipping up a deck plate.  Terry, again, thank you!

Adjustable cam pulleys arrived from France this afternoon.

Ordered the ARP studs today that replace the long bolts.  Estimated arrival - Christmas Eve.

They'll look nice in my stockings on the mantle.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Crackerman

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 199
  • Location: Alvord, Tx
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5436 on: December 17, 2015, 11:30:14 PM »
Was darton not able to make a sleeve /deckplate combo for this?

Offline fordboy628

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2283
  • Age: 4
  • Location: Koozebane
  • GONE FISHIN' . . .
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5437 on: December 18, 2015, 07:51:37 AM »

With the open deck architecture of the Vega, the sleeve tied the bores and the outside of the block together to stiffen everything. It will help keep stuff straight and square, IMO>

Jack, I'm convinced you're right.  Simply using the compression of the long bolts to hold things together is in no way going to provide the kind of stability I want in a racing engine.  GM gave up on with the Vega - unfortunately, Rover lacked the resources to start with a clean sheet of paper.

Our discussions at PRI led us to the proposition of skipping the MLS gasket arrangement as well - for 2 reasons.

1 - The high performance MLS gasket available for the K is designed for both the 1.6/1.8 engine, which have 80 mm bores.  This gives away too much compression in a 1 liter with 75 mm bores.  It's a battle we've been through before, and we're not retaking that hill again.

2 - We've decided to O-ring the cylinders and put a retaining grove in the head.  This will give us better control over the volume of the chamber and a better method to lock into place the positioning of the head.  With the liners pressed into place and any positioning issue resolved, a thinner copper gasket - thinner than the stock gasket - can be used.  At that point, we'll be looking at sealing off the oil and water passages between the block and the head with O-rings.

Toys are arriving.  The junk head arrived from Germany yesterday.  The bearing journals are mucked up, but we're using this to experiment with flow and porting.  It wasn't cheap getting it here, but it's here.

Podunk is on the case whipping up a deck plate.  Terry, again, thank you!

Adjustable cam pulleys arrived from France this afternoon.

Ordered the ARP studs today that replace the long bolts.  Estimated arrival - Christmas Eve.

They'll look nice in my stockings on the mantle.

midget,

I was thinking that after we talked to Darton, that siamesed sleeves were going to be the only way to increase the bearing area on the bottom of the sleeves, as Darton recommended.   The lack of adequate bearing area between the block and the sleeves is one of the flaws in the OEM design when modified for racing.

On the parts front:  Oh boy!!   :-D

 :cheers:
F/B
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline fordboy628

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2283
  • Age: 4
  • Location: Koozebane
  • GONE FISHIN' . . .
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5438 on: December 18, 2015, 08:16:05 AM »
midget,

Going to need some sort of useable head gasket for a starting pattern to send to Flatout Gaskets.   The need is not immediate, just don't forget about it.   I'll get together with Mark, to renew our old friendship, and discuss whether his rubber coated copper product is the solution for Rover head gaskets.

https://www.flatoutgroup.com/customgaskets.aspx

 :cheers:
F/B
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Rex Schimmer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2433
  • Age: 77
  • Location: Fulton, CA
  • Only time and money prevent completion!
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5439 on: December 18, 2015, 03:51:57 PM »
Chris and Mark,
Doing a little "blue sky" thinking about your project I was wondering of the possibility of running larger copper wire, say .06 or even .08 diameter, with appropriate matching groves cut in both the head and the tops of the sleeves. Design the groves so that with the wire installed and the head torqued there would be a 20 to 30 thou gap between the head and the top of the block, then have a solid copper gasket made that would fill this space and keep the water jacket orings in place and sealed. This way the compression seal is the copper wire and it is also acting as a key that provides location and strength for the head/block interface.

Just a thought and I know it is your deal and money but as "they" say:" you are having intercourse with this cat, I am merely holding it's head!"

Rex

 
Rex

Not much matters and the rest doesn't matter at all.

Offline fordboy628

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2283
  • Age: 4
  • Location: Koozebane
  • GONE FISHIN' . . .
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5440 on: December 18, 2015, 04:39:31 PM »
Chris and Mark,
Doing a little "blue sky" thinking about your project I was wondering of the possibility of running larger copper wire, say .06 or even .08 diameter, with appropriate matching groves cut in both the head and the tops of the sleeves. Design the groves so that with the wire installed and the head torqued there would be a 20 to 30 thou gap between the head and the top of the block, then have a solid copper gasket made that would fill this space and keep the water jacket orings in place and sealed. This way the compression seal is the copper wire and it is also acting as a key that provides location and strength for the head/block interface.

Just a thought and I know it is your deal and money but as "they" say:" you are having intercourse with this cat, I am merely holding it's head!"

Rex

Rex,

You must have psychic powers.    The current plan, since the PRI show, is to O-ring the barrels, use an .031" thick copper head gasket, in conjunction with a receiver groove machined into the head.   We will gain structural strength and barrel/gasket rigidity with this type of setup.   A side benefit is that the thinner gasket gains a bit of compression ratio as well.

You know what they say about minds thinking alike . . . . . . . .

Those "down under" are thinking:  Why a cat??   Sheep are so much better looking . . . . . . . .    :roll:

 :cheers:
Notacatloverboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline fordboy628

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2283
  • Age: 4
  • Location: Koozebane
  • GONE FISHIN' . . .
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5441 on: December 18, 2015, 05:15:59 PM »
midget,  et all,

Finally, here is some optimism about the Rover K, posted 11 years ago, to the day.

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f307/k-series-motor-racecar-engineering-8428/

In a technical article in a magazine noteworthy for their technical expertise.


Also:  http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/thecar/engine/kingk.html

Basically the same article, but with more engineering details and therefore a longer read.

Ah yes, research.    The prelude to: DEVELOPMENT.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline fordboy628

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2283
  • Age: 4
  • Location: Koozebane
  • GONE FISHIN' . . .
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5442 on: December 20, 2015, 06:08:28 AM »
midget,

For future reference:

Stock Rover MLS gasket:            1.6mm thickness  (.063")  x  82.5mm bore,  8.55 cc's   adds 4.93 cc's

Custom Cometic MLS gasket:     1.04mm thickness  (.041")  x  78.0mm bore,  4.97 cc's   adds 1.35 cc's

Custom rubber coated copper:   .787mm thickness  (.031")  x  76.5mm bore,  3.62 cc's   best case scenario, so far . . . . . .

Custom solid copper gaskets could be sourced from either Flatout Gaskets or Clark Copper Gasket.   Flatout has the proprietary coated product, designed to seal oil and water passages with out additional localized applications of "goo".

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

  • Nancy and me and the pit bike
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12590
  • Age: 72
  • Location: Skandia, Michigan
  • Nancy -- 201.913 mph record on a production ZX15!
    • Nancy and Jon's personal website.
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5443 on: December 20, 2015, 08:36:16 AM »
Fordboy628 said:

" with out additional localized applications of "goo"."

Yeah, but then the oatmeal companies will lose market share.  Be careful when choosing sealants! :-D
Jon E. Wennerberg
 a/k/a Seldom Seen Slim
 Skandia, Michigan
 (that's way up north)
2 Club member x2
Owner of landracing.com

Offline jdincau

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1008
  • Age: 79
  • Location: Palmdale, Cal.
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5444 on: December 20, 2015, 10:33:44 AM »
http://scegaskets.com/

http://scegaskets.com/products/

made custom solid copper head gaskets for us
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 10:36:48 AM by jdincau »
Unless it's crazy, ambitious and delusional, it's not worth our time!