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Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 2238041 times)

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Offline Ron Gibson

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5400 on: December 07, 2015, 10:12:11 AM »
X2  Can tell a true horror story about that.

Ron
Life is an abrasive. Whether you get ground away or polished to a shine depends on what you are made of.

Online salt27

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5401 on: December 07, 2015, 10:18:29 AM »
Why would anyone change to JE?
X2  Can tell a true horror story about that.

Ron

Do tell.  

Ron, The reason I ask is Gus just installed a JE in his 450.

Is there a reason to be concerned?

What say you, Fordboy.

Chris, sorry about a hijack that doesn't mention beer.   :-D

  Thanks, Don
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 10:53:58 AM by salt27 »

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5402 on: December 07, 2015, 03:05:07 PM »
13 passes total at Bonneville, 2 at Maxton, a lot of time on the dyno, and no problems with the J&Es in the Midget.

But then, no boost and less than 100 hp. 

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline grumm441

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5403 on: December 08, 2015, 03:00:10 AM »


Might try to post some pictures later, but you are going to have to travel beneath the "cheddar curtain" for a meaningful, personal inspection of the bits.

"Uncharted territory is a bitch."    Reputedly attributed to Sir Ernest Shackleton . . . . . . .

 :cheers:
Silicasuckingboy

He never would've said that
Nothing bothered Sir Ernest Shackleton


13 passes total at Bonneville, 2 at Maxton, a lot of time on the dyno, and no problems with the J&Es in the Midget.

But then, no boost and less than 100 hp. 



Yes , but to use the Australian vernacular." It had been given the berries and had the ring revved out of it"

G
Chief Motorcycle Steward Dry Lakes Racers Australia Inc
Wazavudu Bellytank  Spirit of Sunshine Bellytank

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5404 on: December 08, 2015, 06:25:15 AM »
... Every piston I have ever seen from Diamond has been "monstrously" heavy.    I am currently trying to get one of my vintage clients to change from Diamond to JE... The Diamonds are cheap though...
Sorry to dig so far back into this thread. But in general I respect what FordBoy posts; which left me very puzzled by this response to my selection of Diamond for custom billet pistons. Reading tonight about Dutweiler's continued use of Diamond pistons in Speed Demon engines reminded me of this puzzling statement. Was FordBoy being sarcastic? If not, I'll try some sarcasm of my own- maybe he should try to get Kenny to "change from Diamond to JE". :roll:

Thanks Jack, for calling me out on this.   An apology and an explanation are in order.

No sarcasm was intended in my comment.    However, in retrospect, my use of the adjective, "monstrously", was way too negative and inaccurate.    Diamond has been around for a long time, has a wealth of knowledge about piston manufacturing, and produces a great product many use and endorse.    I certainly apologize for any perceived slight to them or their reputation.    AND, far be it from me to tell Ken Dutweiler how to do anything.    His record stands on its' own.


Let's talk about pistons though, while recognizing that everyone's experience with various manufacturers is going to be different.   Why is that?

Some reality about pistons is that the mass of the piston, (and the piston assembly), has a vital influence on how the piston performs.    IF, as in the example offered, the Dutweiler built turbo engines for Speed Demon, the need is for high temperature strength and the ability to shed that heat from the mass of the piston, that particular piston will probably need greater section thickness, even with oil jet piston cooling.   And, therefore, that piston will be heavier than a piston for a normally aspirated engine of the same displacement.   So for a normally aspirated application it would probably be "too" heavy.

That is my point about the other example, my client with a normally aspirated MGB.   The Diamond produced piston is quite a bit heavier than it could be, for that bore diameter.     Why so?   Not every piston manufacturer has a "light weight" forging for every bore diameter.    Some manufacturers do not have even standard style forging blanks for every bore diameter.     Why?    Because forging dies are an expensive cost, and if there are very few sales for a given bore size, it is simply a poor business choice to have a die, or multiple dies, for an application that loses revenue.    The Diamond piston is just "heavier", and the client has had some component failures.    A lighter piston would reduce the component stresses and reduce the failure rate.    Not every manufacturer can produce a "lighter" piston assembly for the application.    MG's are not as popular as a race engine platform as the small block chevy.    Stands to reason, and that is why there are more manufacturers producing more choices for chevy engines.

In the last 20/25 years, one of the goals has been to increase bhp output by increasing the rev limit.    Lighter components are the reliable pathway to increased rpm's.   I have used lots of JE pistons over the years and have always been satisfied.    The caveat is that for the most part, they were for smaller (less than 3.5" bore) bore diameters.   And they were not the lightest pistons.    Usually Cosworth pistons were lightest, and not always available.    Availability, or lack thereof, causes a search for an alternate manufacturer.

And since this current permutation of the Milwaukee Midget is going to be normally aspirated, AND have a higher working rpm limit, (and that does not account for 5' 17" sized feet . . . . . .  :roll: ) the smart choice is to go with the "lighter" type piston assembly.    Supplier to be determined, but Wossner has a forging to suit the application.

Disclaimer:   This is my opinion, and my opinion only.   My opinion is influenced by my personal experience, and the experiences of others in the industry whose experience and opinion I trust and value.     I reserve the right to change my opinion at any time, without any notice.    I'm kinda fickle that way . . . . . . .       AND, it is also important to note that there is always, "some disagreement", between professionals in the industry, about what is or is not, important.    Only the end user can determine if a part is adequate for the intended application.    And that is usually determined by destructive testing . . . . . . . .         Da**!!    I hate when that happens to my guys.

 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 06:34:28 AM by fordboy628 »
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"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

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Offline SPARKY

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5405 on: December 08, 2015, 07:21:37 AM »
FB

 I always get an increase in expectations when I see you are the person who posted last on this build---I don't know if it going to be a zinger back at the Packer deranged fellow or building insights but whichever I am usually rewarded.   :cheers:
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust and RUST!!!

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Offline Stainless1

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5406 on: December 08, 2015, 08:35:23 AM »
Mark, have Chris give you a fifth of Kenny's budget (that's a good per inch of motor size comparison) and I'll bet you guys push the I real high...  :roll:
I like Wossner pistons as well.... they treat the LSR guys well, kinda like JE used to do when John Noonan was there...
 hummmmm....  :roll:  :cheers:
Stainless
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Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5407 on: December 08, 2015, 09:31:37 AM »
FB

 I always get an increase in expectations when I see you are the person who posted last on this build---I don't know if it going to be a zinger back at the Packer deranged fellow or building insights but whichever I am usually rewarded.   :cheers:

Sparky,

Thanks

 :cheers:
F/B
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5408 on: December 08, 2015, 10:48:17 AM »
Mark, have Chris give you a fifth of Kenny's budget (that's a good per inch of motor size comparison) and I'll bet you guys push the I real high...  :roll:
I like Wossner pistons as well.... they treat the LSR guys well, kinda like JE used to do when John Noonan was there...
 hummmmm....  :roll:  :cheers:

Bob,

I'm setting the over/under for the fraction of Dutweiler's budget that Chris can afford, at double digits as opposed to single.    Uhhhmmm, count me in for a sawbuck on the over, the waaay over.     :roll:   Sorry Chris.    But I'll still bet that Chris' results with the new engine, first time out, will be a satisfactory one, regardless of dollar amount spent.

And in the interest of full disclosure, my experiences with JE pistons were quite some time ago.   So long in fact, I'm not even sure who I dealt with.

 :cheers:
Fordboy   
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5409 on: December 08, 2015, 10:57:03 AM »

Bob,

I'm setting the over/under for the fraction of Dutweiler's budget that Chris can afford, at double digits as opposed to single.    Uhhhmmm, count me in for a sawbuck on the over, the waaay over.     :roll:   Sorry Chris.    But I'll still bet that Chris' results with the new engine, first time out, will be a satisfactory one, regardless of dollar amount spent.


I checked the fridge this morning before I went to work.  There was food in there, so I'm still under budget . . .
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Speed Limit 1000

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5410 on: December 08, 2015, 12:18:02 PM »
 :cheers:
John Gowetski, red hat @ 221.183 MPH MSA Lakester, Bockscar #1000 60 ci normally aspirated w/N20

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5411 on: December 08, 2015, 01:59:24 PM »
I checked the fridge this morning before I went to work.  There was food in there, so I'm still under budget . . .MM

silly boy

you look for liquids in bottles and cans--not that solid stuff that can spoil!!!!!!!!!
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust and RUST!!!

The # 1 issue is: TO KEEP THE REPUBLIC      
           tncsg.org     mrspowell.org

ELECTION  INTEGRITY  PROJECT
eip-ca.com  EIPAz.org  eipnv.

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5412 on: December 08, 2015, 04:02:28 PM »
I checked the fridge this morning before I went to work.  There was food in there, so I'm still under budget . . .MM

silly boy

you look for liquids in bottles and cans--not that solid stuff that can spoil!!!!!!!!!


I'll never learn - there has been more than one night when I've found myself elbow deep into the project, realize I'm thirsty and looked at the clock, only to discover the startling truth that the liquor store had already closed.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 04:09:19 PM by Milwaukee Midget »
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Podunk

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5413 on: December 08, 2015, 05:11:35 PM »
Chris,
I wish I could sit in the back seat to and from Indy and just say "why's that" every once and awhile.
Terry

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5414 on: December 08, 2015, 07:12:09 PM »
Chris,
I wish I could sit in the back seat to and from Indy and just say "why's that" every once and awhile.
Terry

Terry, I always enjoy your company, but since I sold the Magnum, between the F150, the MGB, the Sprite and the Midget, I no longer own a car with more than 2 seats!

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!