(Note: LANDRACING.COM donations are not tax deductible)


This is a public forum. The opinions expressed here don't
necessarily reflect the feelings of The Folks That Run The Site (that's us)
unless we explicitly say so, ok?


Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 2236629 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Old Scrambler

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 697
  • Age: 73
  • Location: Wherever I park the RV
  • Going Fast - Slowly
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5280 on: August 16, 2015, 02:13:43 PM »
The valve-design is the primary focus of the info I was sharing...............I have no idea if the FERREA products can be adapted to your head.........I merely offered a source of light-weight components for your consideration.  One of our goals was to slightly increase the size of the intake valve (34 to 35mm) because the seats were pitted and quite a bit of material would be removed. Dave did not want to sink the valves. When he saw the trail-set his eyes lit-up as if he had opened a jewelry box :-D.  Secondary goals were to have lighter weight components, flat valve faces, thinner stems and/or the super-flow design, and matching components on the exhaust side.

This motor design uses a hemi-shaped head into which we planned to run high-domed pistons. Rather than shave and deck for increased compression, we exchanged rods to push the pistons 1mm higher into the head. This kept valve-shrouding to a minimum. Our motor is a 1mm overbore from stock, but the larger valves are quite close to the outer edges. We slightly milled the outer edge of the chamber to assure sufficient piston to head clearance. We also had to fly-cut the piston valve-reliefs to clear the larger valves.

 

 

 

   
2011 AMA Record - 250cc M-PG TRIUMPH Tiger Cub - 82.5 mph
2013 AMA Record - 250cc MPS-PG TRIUMPH Tiger Cub - 88.7 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc M-CG HONDA CB750 sohc - 136.6 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc MPS-CG HONDA CB750 sohc - 143.005 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc M-CF HONDA CB750 sohc - 139.85 mph
2018 AMA Record - 750cc MPS-CF HONDA CB750 sohc - 144.2025 mph

Chassis Builder / Tuner: Dave Murre

Offline fordboy628

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2283
  • Age: 4
  • Location: Koozebane
  • GONE FISHIN' . . .
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5281 on: August 17, 2015, 02:33:29 PM »
The valve-design is the primary focus of the info I was sharing...............I have no idea if the FERREA products can be adapted to your head.........I merely offered a source of light-weight components for your consideration.  One of our goals was to slightly increase the size of the intake valve (34 to 35mm) because the seats were pitted and quite a bit of material would be removed. Dave did not want to sink the valves. When he saw the trail-set his eyes lit-up as if he had opened a jewelry box :-D.  Secondary goals were to have lighter weight components, flat valve faces, thinner stems and/or the super-flow design, and matching components on the exhaust side.

This motor design uses a hemi-shaped head into which we planned to run high-domed pistons. Rather than shave and deck for increased compression, we exchanged rods to push the pistons 1mm higher into the head. This kept valve-shrouding to a minimum. Our motor is a 1mm overbore from stock, but the larger valves are quite close to the outer edges. We slightly milled the outer edge of the chamber to assure sufficient piston to head clearance. We also had to fly-cut the piston valve-reliefs to clear the larger valves.

Scrambler,

Based on your photos, I would label your engine a "low level" "semi-hemi".     A Lotus TwinCam, an engine with which I am really familiar, is a "mid level" "semi-hemi".

The Lotus has the same issues as your Honda:

A)   Large surface to volume ratio, hindering easy C/R increases,
2)   Lack of adequate quench for "squish",
d)   Valve to valve edge proximity, prohibiting use of "high intensity" camshafts, at cam timings appropriate for race engines,   (hence the 108 LCA)
z)   etc, etc, etc.

There are things you can do to "Band-Aid" some of the packaging issues, but if you are happy with the bhp it is producing, don't screw with it.    Run it, and get some riding time on it, and then see what you think.

Thanks for the info on the Ferrea valves.   Chris is looking under every rock for suitable valves.    But he may not need too much more flow.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline fordboy628

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2283
  • Age: 4
  • Location: Koozebane
  • GONE FISHIN' . . .
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5282 on: August 17, 2015, 02:40:15 PM »
midget,

There is some info on the Dave Andrews site that suggests that 75mm bore K series engines can NOT accommodate the oversize valves, (29.5mm intake valves and 26mm exhaust valves), without clearance notches in the tops of the cylinder bores.

This needs to be checked out.

Have finished all the hand entry of the Andrews flow numbers into my portable cauldron.    Some interesting data.    Once I get some other simulation numbers crunched out, I'll post up the data.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline fordboy628

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2283
  • Age: 4
  • Location: Koozebane
  • GONE FISHIN' . . .
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5283 on: August 21, 2015, 05:59:35 PM »
midget,

Having a evil day . . . . . .    relative related . . . . . . .   bad, bad, bad, bad . . . . . . . .

Went with the wife to Wal-Mart, just to pick up a few things . . . . . . . .

LO and BEHOLD, in the liquor section, Lienie's Oktoberfest, AND, Sam Adams Oktoberfest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D

My favorite time of year, MARZEN BEER TIME!!!!!!!!

Needless to say, my mood has been elevated!!!!!!  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D

God bless Sam Walton, wherever he is . . . . . .  :evil:  :evil:

Think I'll have a "dog beer" with my dinner, you know, just to keep my mood "elevated" . . . . .

"It's not about the journey, it's about the beer and liquor."   mhsb

 :cheers:  :cheers:  :cheers:  :cheers:  :cheers:  :cheers:  :cheers:
Oktoberfestfreakboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Milwaukee Midget

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6481
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Beerhaven, Wisconsin
  • After further investigation, I/GT record holder
    • Milwaukee Midget Racing
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5284 on: August 21, 2015, 06:05:06 PM »
At Wal-Mart prices, you might be able to stock up and maintain a smile through the entire Bears season.

Ohhhh . . . that was C O L D !

   :cheers:  :cheers:  :cheers:
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline tauruck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4921
  • Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5285 on: August 21, 2015, 07:00:46 PM »
COLD????.

That was nuts. The guy's your engine builder. :-D

You'll need to send a care package like SOON!!!!. :-D :-D :-D

Offline fordboy628

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2283
  • Age: 4
  • Location: Koozebane
  • GONE FISHIN' . . .
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5286 on: August 22, 2015, 08:20:35 AM »
Nah . . . . . .

He's right about 'da Bears', smug Packer lovin' son of a ?*!*? that he is . . . . . . . .

Just wait 'til Rodgers get hurt . . . . . . .  What do you have then?   :cry:


Heeey . . .  you can run those stock valves and springs on the Rover . . . . . . .   Noooo problem . . . . . . .   Just paint 'em Packer green . . . .   and RELAX . . . . .

 :dhorse:
Dogbeerboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Stan Back

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5258
  • Location: San Berdoo
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5287 on: August 22, 2015, 10:24:08 AM »
Chris --

You shouldn't've pisst him off.

Stan
Past Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- Fifty-Seven Years of Leadership  Is Enough

Offline Milwaukee Midget

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6481
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Beerhaven, Wisconsin
  • After further investigation, I/GT record holder
    • Milwaukee Midget Racing
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5288 on: August 22, 2015, 02:09:18 PM »
Guys, realistically -

I've lived in Wisconsin for 34 years.  I've seen some of the worst Packer teams imaginable, and I've seen some of the best.

And in those 34 years, I've also seen some pretty damned good Bears teams.

What I've learned is this - "what goes around, comes around".

I've no doubt that at some time in the future, I will be harangued by Mark with respect to my football loyalty.

And it may be sooner than later - especially if the Bears get high picks in the draft - which, even at this early point in the pre-season, looks quite likely . . .

 :wink:
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline 4-barrel Mike

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3062
  • Age: 72
  • Location: Portland, OR
  • Any fool can drive a V8
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5289 on: August 22, 2015, 03:24:22 PM »
Yep.  It worked really well in Cleveland last year.   :mrgreen:

Mike
Mike Kelly - PROUD owner of the V4F that powered the #1931 VGC to a 82.803 mph record in 2008!

Offline tauruck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4921
  • Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5290 on: August 23, 2015, 01:52:20 AM »
Well at least we know Chris is one honest Cheese Head.
This is what makes sports great and keep us coming back for more. :cheers:

Offline fordboy628

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2283
  • Age: 4
  • Location: Koozebane
  • GONE FISHIN' . . .
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5291 on: August 30, 2015, 09:05:22 AM »
midget,

Inlet port diameter of the cylinder head is ~ 33mm, so throttle blade diameter should be:

A)    33mm * 1.15% = 37.95mm
2)    33mm * 1.20% = 39.60mm

Something in the 38mm/40mm blade diameter should be adequate and give good throttle response.   That should also allow sufficient taper in the inlet tract for a reasonable "energy gain" in gas speed in the inlet tract.    I'm thinking shorter throttle bodies may give more manifold design flexibility.    Try not to "re-invent the wheel" please.

Will put up more flow data sourced from the Brits as soon as I get it printed out, scanned, etc.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Rex Schimmer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2433
  • Age: 77
  • Location: Fulton, CA
  • Only time and money prevent completion!
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5292 on: August 30, 2015, 02:51:38 PM »
Chris,
I have a set of injectors off of some "rice rocket" (600 Honda I think) that have 39 mm bores on 75 mm centers. If this might work for you E mail me your address and they will be in the mail.

Rex
Rex

Not much matters and the rest doesn't matter at all.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6481
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Beerhaven, Wisconsin
  • After further investigation, I/GT record holder
    • Milwaukee Midget Racing
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5293 on: August 30, 2015, 10:50:30 PM »
midget,


Something in the 38mm/40mm blade diameter should be adequate and give good throttle response.   That should also allow sufficient taper in the inlet tract for a reasonable "energy gain" in gas speed in the inlet tract.    I'm thinking shorter throttle bodies may give more manifold design flexibility.    Try not to "re-invent the wheel" please.


You see, this is how Mark slows me up when I start trying to get creative.  

He asks the question he KNOWS I don't know the answer to, and knows I won't be able to come up with an answer until next weekend.

Relax, I haven't dropped a dime on it yet.

Still the grasshopper in Beerhaven . . ., but I DO want to balance parts availability and serviceability into the equation.  If you think about how difficult even Weber carb parts are to get ahold of these days, it sure would be sweet to be able to get replacement injectors and parts from Don and Roy's Cycle in Brookfield, rather than waking up at Oh-God:30 in the morning to call the Midlands and speak to foreigners in their own tongue and STILL miscommunicate what we're trying to do.

Jenvey makes a kit that bolts up directly to the head, but it's intended for 200 + hp 2 liter applications, and while I like the idea of a kit, our combination is just so weird that I question if much "off-of-the-shelf" stuff is going to be "the right combination".  

I did come across a set of Yamy FJR1300 throttle bodies with injectors, which had about a 38mm bore and an intake diameter of 42 mm.

These aren't the actual pieces - but this is what I was looking at over at Milwaukee Cycle Salvage, and they included the injectors . . .

http://www.ebay.com/itm/05-YAMAHA-FJR1300-FJR-1300-ABS-THROTTLE-BODY-BODIES-B32-/350671137896?hash=item51a5a0ec68&vxp=mtr

Rex, regarding your offer, here's what's key - the throttle bodies must be individual pieces, not cast in pairs.  Most of what I perused Saturday were cast as pairs.  With individual throttle bodies, I can fabricate both a fuel rail and brackets, and come up with some sort of linkage.  We're at 88 mm on center - most of the bike stuff I looked at was ~77.  Mark wants a straight tract to the port - I think that makes more sense than goosenecking it like a Weber.

The FJR produces 145 hp in stock form at 8500 rpm - if the flow is correct for our app, I'm thinking these - or something similar - might be an option.

I also came across this - a set-up made for a Vauxhall C20XE out of a set of GSXR throttle bodies - it looks doable . . . and this wheel has already been invented!



Regardless of how we go, it's all going to need sorting, but I do like the idea of being able to optimize the intake track (tract? . . .  :roll:).

« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 10:54:36 PM by Milwaukee Midget »
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline RichFox

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2624
  • Location: San Mateo, Ca
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #5294 on: August 31, 2015, 09:28:48 AM »
GSXR throttles for a 32 Plymouth