Milwaukee Midget

[Stan Back]

Better get huffin' and puffin'.

There a 995cc Honda (Impact?) entered in SpeedWeek this year in I/GT.  The Japanese probably didn't study up in Subway Sandwich construction, either.

[fordboy628]

Hey Plumberboy... nice re-purposing
You do a great job of staying out of the box 

Thanks!!

Stainless
I don't think Plumerboy even knows what a box is and doesn't worry about it.

Ron

Thanks again!!   Being penned up "in the box", gets you the same results as the other sheep . . . . . . . .      so yes, I don't worry about it.

I've been told lots of times, "You can't do it that way."      I let the results speak for themselves.
 
Plumberboy

[fordboy628]

Better get huffin' and puffin'.

There a 995cc Honda (Impact?) entered in SpeedWeek this year in I/GT.  The Japanese probably didn't study up in Subway Sandwich construction, either.

It's probably the early Honda Insight that has been rumored to appear over the last year or so.    Chris is aware of the effort.

Tom Donney, the current J/GT record holder, is also rumored to be building an engine to bump his Saab up to I/GT.

There is a Chicago based vintage racer who keeps talking about a Bonneville effort with a de-stroked 240Z.

And there is another vintage racer based in North Carolina who thinks a Honda S800 would be a world beater, as his road race version typically exceeds 120 mph at various race tracks in the east.   I'm unsure if that car is legit for GT, but I'm sure it would fit somewhere in some class.

And Ralph Thomas commented on a vintage road race site about bringing another I/GT Abarth to Bonneville.

So who knows who might show up with what?    I say "The more, the merrier".    The class could use some competitive co-operation and attention.    And it will make the evenings on the Salt interesting.

All I know for sure is that the Milwaukee Midget is going to languish in Milwaukee until the heart transplant is finished.    We are chipping away at it . . . . . . . .
 
Likestobecompetitiveboy

[4-barrel Mike]

The S800 is tiny:



It's been one of my all time favorite cars since I first saw one in Japan in 1969.  I'd love to see one on the salt.

 

Mike

[Rick Byrnes]

There a 995cc Honda (Impact?) entered in SpeedWeek this year in I/GT.  The Japanese probably didn't study up in Subway Sandwich construction, either.
[/quote]


Interesting to see a number of cars in this class.  Back in 08 I was commissioned to work with a guy building a 998 cosworth powered Ginetta.  I wasn't the fabricator, or body guy, but the "brains" to make the car safe, and within the rules, as well as perform.  The return "work" was to be the 3d design of the liner body.
spent 9 months working with him every day and doing way more fabricating, plumbing, etc, than I planned, and some engine work when he changed his mind about a few things, but the car was finished.  Looked beautiful, and ran really well.  In testing it went 124MPH in the mile and I was finally done with my task.
He showed up at Bonneville I think at WF, got thru tech with no issues, and in his first run shifted from 2nd to 1st gear at red line thereby destroying his historic Cosworth motor.

Actually it is poetic justice, as he never paid me for the work.....he proved to be like most body design stylists, arrogant, and thought he knew more than everyone else. like his sh1t didn't stink.

If he has fixed it, it could be a really good competitor.

[fordboy628]

Interesting to see a number of cars in this class.  Back in 08 I was commissioned to work with a guy building a 998 cosworth powered Ginetta.

998 Cosworth, what exactly?

NCF Ford F3 downdraft?
NCF Ford F/Junior?
Cosworth MAE?
Cosworth SC variant?
Cosworth BD variant?

I'm really curious because I have worked on a LOT of them over the years.   These engines are still very popular in Great Britain and Europe, most parts are readily available, although some repop Cossie stuff can be pricey.

A shame about the engine.    But if the guy was a #*!$?*, perhaps he got a karmic bounceback . . . . . . .   

 
Fordboy

[Milwaukee Midget]

I'd argue the Insight is not a GT class car. 

It's not a 2 seat production sports car.  Never sold as one, never insured as one.

It is not like a Corvette, Honda S-2000 or a Fiero.  It was intended to be a fuel efficient, ground breaking commuter/highway car.

Just ask Honda.

http://www.auto-brochures.com/makes/Honda/Insight/Honda_US%20Insight_2000.pdf

So yes, I'm freaking out. 

[Rick Byrnes]

I believe real, and original.  He purchased from someone in Brittan in the mid 90's. Engine was pushrod 2 valve, Iron, siamesed port U flow but ran up to at least 7k rpm.  It had two stage oil pump. 
Used dual side draft DCOE (dont know the bore) I had headers made locally, without any real analysis like you and Chris are doing, but the package turned out pretty fast.

As I said if he ever  comes down off his high horse and works on it, it could be an admirable competitor.  He got lots of ink because his wife at the time worked for a BIG advertising firm. (even had a film crew)

Too bad he had no integrity. 

Rick

[Rick Byrnes]

I SURE HOPE SCTA DOES NOT THINK A HONDA INSIGHT IS A GT CAR.

[Milwaukee Midget]

I SURE HOPE SCTA DOES NOT THINK A HONDA INSIGHT IS A GT CAR.

It's a tough call.

While it certainly only has two seats, is it a "two seat production sports car"?   Honda never referred to it as such. 

Is a '49 Plymouth business coupe a sports car?

The '55 T-bird was marketed as a sports car, but that bench seat sat three.

Are we opening the floodgates to a plethora of Smart Cars running I/GT?

Of course, the rule also states "intended for comfortable high speed driving".

I'd certainly have to hope that those who certify records haven't actually driven a Midget . . . 


It's all a bit murky these days, in that the wording harkens back to a time when sports cars were sports cars, and other cars were other cars.

It's all becoming a bit "Dolanesque" in the lower rungs of GT again . . .

[fordboy628]

I believe real, and original.  He purchased from someone in Brittan in the mid 90's. Engine was pushrod 2 valve, Iron, siamesed port U flow but ran up to at least 7k rpm.  It had two stage oil pump.  
Used dual side draft DCOE (dont know the bore) I had headers made locally, without any real analysis like you and Chris are doing, but the package turned out pretty fast.

As I said if he ever  comes down off his high horse and works on it, it could be an admirable competitor.  He got lots of ink because his wife at the time worked for a BIG advertising firm. (even had a film crew)

Too bad he had no integrity.  

Rick

Sounds like either a dry sumped MkIII F/Jr or a 1 liter MkXI F/Jr.    If purchased in the mid 90's, it was probably a repop, as the parts were all available then, though it could have been an original.    PHP here in the states, and Richardsen in England, built up dozens of the little screamers for current vintage racers in the late 80's to mid 90's as F/Jr was very popular then.    Still popular in Europe and Oz.    Vintage Formula Ford killed the class here in the states.    Same lap times, lower cost.

MkIII used a Ford 105E cylinder block, 85/90 bhp @ Cosworth Spec.
MkXI used a Ford 109E cylinder block, 100/110 bhp @ Cosworth Spec. and 1098cc's (std MkXI displacement)
Both used heavily modified Ford 105E cylinder heads and twin Weber 40DCOE's.   They were full spec racing engines, not just warmed over stock Fords . . . . .

Really trick vintage racing engines I was building @ PHP in the mid 90's made 105/110 bhp from 997/998 cc's, 120/125 bhp from 1098 cc's and the power peak was 8500 rpm and safe revs to 9500 rpm.   Those engines needed regular maintenance though.    You ignored that at your own peril . . . . . . . . .

Duckworth himself was at a Watkins Glen Vintage race in the early 1990's.  He was impressed with how far we had taken the development of "his baby".

Based on what I know about those engines and the development I did when I owned PHP, a 998 cc NCF Ford based F/Jr is going to cap out about 114/116 bhp/liter, making peak power ~ 9000/9200 rpm, and it will be: pricey, temperamental and possibly fragile, depending on the quality of the parts used.    Might be enough to be competitive in the right chassis.
 
Fordboy

[fordboy628]

I SURE HOPE SCTA DOES NOT THINK A HONDA INSIGHT IS A GT CAR.

It's a tough call.

While it certainly only has two seats, is it a "two seat production sports car"?   Honda never referred to it as such.  

Is a '49 Plymouth business coupe a sports car?

The '55 T-bird was marketed as a sports car, but that bench seat sat three.

Are we opening the floodgates to a plethora of Smart Cars running I/GT?

Of course, the rule also states "intended for comfortable high speed driving".

I'd certainly have to hope that those who certify records haven't actually driven a Midget . . .  


It's all a bit murky these days, in that the wording harkens back to a time when sports cars were sports cars, and other cars were other cars.

It's all becoming a bit "Dolanesque" in the lower rungs of GT again . . .

midget,

I don't argue with the "rules guys" or anybody for that matter, anymore . . . . . .    

I have only so many "breaths" left, I don't intend to "waste" any.    I also recognize that "my opinion" is just that, my opinion.

I suggest you do the same.    It will preserve your sanity.    Oh, wait, you race a . . . . . . . .    

Uhhhmmm, ya know, it might be too late for us . . . . . . . . .    

I'll put in a call to Dr. Crane, er, Dr. Phil, aaahhh, maybe Dr. Freud will return our calls . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 
Exhaustedbylifeboy

[WOODY@DDLLC]

Silly midget boys, you'll know it's our "Dr." Freud when you hear the never-ending  laughter! 
You'll have so much fun spanking the contenders! 

[ShazamRacing]

Guys, according to SCTA rules, the production car classes are divided into Coupes and Sedans, which had seating for 4 (in at least some of their model iterations) and Grand Touring, cars in which all models came with only 2 seats.  Therefore, regardless of what anyone may think the purpose of the Honda Insight is or was, SCTA requires it to compete in the GT class.  I would actually have more options if I could run it in the coupe classes.  Team Shazam made the trek to Speed Week last year, and will try to run again this year, weather permitting.  Interestingly, the Insight does have a brief British road racing history.

Chris, were you required to remove your cylinder head to verify the displacement of the Grenade after you set the record last year?  Your displacement was clearly within 3% of the class minimum, but you never mentioned this in your comments.

Thanks, Gary

[jacksoni]

I SURE HOPE SCTA DOES NOT THINK A HONDA INSIGHT IS A GT CAR.

Sorry to disappoint- the Insight is classed GT. One held the G/GT record for a while, maybe still does. There was an I/GT prepared car at speedweek 2014 that of course didn't run then, I don't know about WOS but Chris beat them to the record anyway.

The above came while I got distracted so is duplicate sort of post.

Along the line of head removal if close to limit, if DW can get a tricky device into the cylinder (ie central plug location) they can measure that way. My 2.0L engine was also at the limit but pumped right at 30cc and was passed without pulling the head. I suspect it varies with inspector.