Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 3255213 times)

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Offline Interested Observer

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4110 on: July 19, 2014, 07:06:20 PM »
Chris,
Having searched the build diary, there doesn’t appear to be any mention of the transmission ratios you are using.  Assuming 1:1 4th and the 4.22 rear, what are the others, (if you care to part with that info)?

Offline 4-barrel Mike

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4111 on: July 19, 2014, 07:45:57 PM »
Mike Kelly - PROUD owner of the V4F that powered the #1931 VGC to a 82.803 mph record in 2008!

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4112 on: July 19, 2014, 11:00:44 PM »
Mike, you've got great search skills.

Yeah, the ratios are now -

First 2.57:1
Second 1.722:1
Third 1.255:1
Top 1:1

Stock ratios were definitely street gears  - and pretty well suited for the later 3.92:1 rear end that Morris put in when they uprated to the 1275 -

First 3.2:1
Second 1.916:1
Third 1.357:1
Top 1:1

The kit I bought from MiniMania is intended for sports racing, and is well suited for a hi-zoot, punched out 1275.

I would love to see a slightly tighter 3-4, but we contended last year, and I'm willing to wind it tighter this year in the lower gears to put it where it needs to be to pull the top.

It will wind to 9k, and if it's will do so strongly in 3rd, I think we'll be golden.

Attached is a Sumner spreadsheet.  It doesn't take into account wheel spin, but somehow, I don't expect wheel spin is going to be a problem.

      RPM In   RPM   RPM In   RPM   RPM In   RPM   RPM In
   MPH   First   Drop    Second   Drop    Third   Drop    Fourth

   100   16579   5483   11096   2967   8128   1677   6451
   105   17408   5757   11650   3116   8535   1761   6774
   110   18237   6032   12205   3264   8941   1845   7096
   115   19066   6306   12760   3413   9347   1929   7419
   120   19895   6580   13315   3561   9754   2013   7741
   125   20724   6854   13870   3709   10160   2097   8064
   130   21553   7128   14424   3858   10567   2180   8386
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4113 on: July 19, 2014, 11:07:38 PM »
My dream chart put the rpm on the left side and the speed for each gear in it's own column the drop is self evident,
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

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We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4114 on: July 20, 2014, 08:42:33 AM »
Mike, you've got great search skills.

Yeah, the ratios are now -

First 2.57:1
Second 1.722:1
Third 1.255:1
Top 1:1

Stock ratios were definitely street gears  - and pretty well suited for the later 3.92:1 rear end that Morris put in when they uprated to the 1275 -

First 3.2:1
Second 1.916:1
Third 1.357:1
Top 1:1

The kit I bought from MiniMania is intended for sports racing, and is well suited for a hi-zoot, punched out 1275.

I would love to see a slightly tighter 3-4, but we contended last year, and I'm willing to wind it tighter this year in the lower gears to put it where it needs to be to pull the top.

It will wind to 9k, and if it's will do so strongly in 3rd, I think we'll be golden.

Attached is a Sumner spreadsheet.  It doesn't take into account wheel spin, but somehow, I don't expect wheel spin is going to be a problem.

      RPM In   RPM   RPM In   RPM   RPM In   RPM   RPM In
   MPH   First   Drop    Second   Drop    Third   Drop    Fourth

   100   16579   5483   11096   2967   8128   1677   6451
   105   17408   5757   11650   3116   8535   1761   6774
   110   18237   6032   12205   3264   8941   1845   7096
   115   19066   6306   12760   3413   9347   1929   7419
   120   19895   6580   13315   3561   9754   2013   7741
   125   20724   6854   13870   3709   10160   2097   8064
   130   21553   7128   14424   3858   10567   2180   8386


midgerooski,

I probably wouldn't call it wheelspin, but I suspect there is some "traction-loss" or some other slight "miscalculation" issue.    Your top speed from last year did not mathematically match up with the calculated speed for the rpm you ran.   Most likely there is a slight difference in the "actual" rolling circumference of your rear tire Vs. the  rolling circumference calculated from the listed diameter.    Something Nascar boys know a lot about.    BTW, inflation pressure does affect diameter & rolling circumference.   Hey Krusty, what do you think?

Do you have any records or recollection of the top rpm you ran at the 2nd mile AND the 3rd mile?    Average speed could then be calculated from the rpm's. 

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4115 on: July 20, 2014, 10:17:37 AM »

Do you have any records or recollection of the top rpm you ran at the 2nd mile AND the 3rd mile?    Average speed could then be calculated from the rpm's. 

 :cheers:
Fordboy

Of course not - a reason I'm seeking a camera for the interior this year.

A year of thinking about it has brought to the fore the things we need to be cognoscente of.

Any suggestions for cameras, anybody?
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Stan Back

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4116 on: July 20, 2014, 02:24:16 PM »
We found, with a bunch more HP and a little more weight, that clutch slippage and traction slippage equals tire growth.  At least that's what the 30-year-old Isky dream wheel always says.  1 or 2 MPH off every time with shaky hands working it.  Sometimes methinks these things are over-thought.
Past (Only) Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- 19 Years of Bonneville and/or El Mirage Street Roadster Records

Offline krusty

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4117 on: July 20, 2014, 03:11:09 PM »

     Mark, you are correct.  You need to measure the roll-out of the tire with the pressure you are running it at. The advertised diameter x Pi vs the roll-out may contribute to a small math error. That said, the Goodyear 2286 (28.0x4.5x15) that we run rolls out at 28.01 at recommended (70#) pressure. Ideally, the driver would jump out at the end of his run and check the rear (usually) tire pressures so we could account for tire growth contributions to the calculated vs. actual measured speed discrepancy. Since he's just hanging out waiting for his recovery vehicle, he could carry a pyrometer,too, and record the temperatures. :evil:

     From what little technical data I have seen, the above tire may have grown between 0.50" and 0.75" at 250 mph (where we run), so that growth might account for a small difference. If anyone reading this has real data on 2286 growth, I'd  love to know it. On what I consider a "good" run (no obvious traction problems, no shifts that are too slow, etc), the exit speed on the time slip is damn close to the math calculation. Usually less than 1 mph, probably more commonly .5 mph.

     The other thing that contributes to small calculation errors are the rounding up/down of numbers. Many people consider 4:11 to be the accepted r&p ratio, but the r&p in our quickchange is much closer to 4:10. You need to be aware if/how your spreadsheet rounds up/down your gear ratios, too, if you want to account for other small math 'error' inducers. As I know you are aware, all the little things add up.

     I look forward to seeing the Midget set the record (last drove my F/P Midget @ Blackhawk in '79, I think) and to renewing our 40 year old acquaintance at Bonneville.

     vic   

     PS: Stan, you are correct, too.




Offline manta22

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4118 on: July 20, 2014, 03:37:36 PM »
To be more accurate when using rear end ring & pinion ratios, it is better to use the actual number of gear teeth rather than the usual number. For example, a gear set with an 11 tooth pinion and 39 tooth ring gear is called a "3.54" but 11 divided by 39 is actually 3.5454545454... The round- off error is significant in this case.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline jacksoni

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4119 on: July 20, 2014, 04:35:50 PM »
Midge/Fordboy- et al- ar you datalogging RPMs? My digital tach displays in 50 rpm increment. An I am with Chris- remembering exactly the rpm when crossing some line may be tough and in my case 9450 displayed might be 9450 up to 9499.

As far as the tire growth question, I am pretty sure they all grow some. I have a set of old (1982 vintage) Mickey Thompson 25x6-15 350 mph rated Bonneville tires that I ran at 75-100lbs pressure and I know for a fact they grew 0.75" radius (1.5 dia) at speed (250-285) because that is how much I had to cut out of the body work (belly pan) to keep them from rubbing.  :-P  Good years lists the 2286 at 27.8 at some testing pressure so the 70lbs does stretch them a tad. By the way, just looking, Summit lists the 2286 as available through them for $550.  Don't know the sticker elsewhere.
Jack Iliff
 G/BGS-250.235 1987
 G/GC- 193.550 2021
  G/FAlt- 193.934 2021 (196.033 best)
 G/GMS-182.144 2019

Offline Finallygotit

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4120 on: July 20, 2014, 10:25:09 PM »

Any suggestions for cameras, anybody?

We have been using ReplyXD's and have been very impressed and happy with the quality.  Go to http://replayxd.com/
Dan
Tucson, AZ

Offline Buickguy3

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4121 on: July 20, 2014, 10:33:58 PM »
   We ran a Replay XD last year but the mount was so rigid that we got a case of rolling shutter [jello cam]. Looked like an ocean wave view. Did you have any issues? We used the mount that came with the camera. Liked the camera, though.
    Doug
I keep going faster and faster and I don't know why. All I have to do is live and die.
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Offline Rob

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4122 on: July 20, 2014, 11:10:49 PM »
I put my "GoPro Hero3 black edition" in the Jag (at 720p) in March and it was excellent Chris. No hazing, noise etc. etc. The white balance was good too.

The only thing I forgot to do was swap the back for the open one to improve the sound reception.  :|

Cheers,
Rob

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4123 on: July 23, 2014, 04:41:20 PM »
midgerooski,

GoPro Version 3 with a remote is what all the road race guys are using.    Seems to work pretty good from their video posts.

Everybody says to go digital (SD card or micro SD card) and stay away from cameras that use mini-CD's.   They are too sensitive to vibrations.
 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4124 on: July 25, 2014, 01:04:34 AM »
Howdy, Jack -

Haven't really been able to data log as of yet - Still trying to get the record feature on the computer to function correctly.

But since I got back to a regular schedule - at least fewer than 16 hours a day - I have made some progress -

Dyno kit - gather   07/07/14   x   
Dyno   07/09/14   x   Tom - T&T (847) 244-2020
Oil and filter - order   07/12/14   x   Check stock first
Transmission - inspect and repair   07/12/14   x   
Trailer - replace U-bolts   07/13/14   x   inspect - rep
Decals - order and install   07/17/14   x   pdf on desktop
Sand and paint top   07/19/14   x   sanded 6/14, 1st coat 6/15
Under hood - clean   07/20/14   x   
Install engine   07/18/14   x   
Tighten timing wheel   07/19/14   x   
Fuel tank - install   07/23/14   x   
Oil - pumpkin and transmission   07/23/14   x   
Exhaust Pipe - have made   07/24/14   x   
A/F sender   07/24/14   x   
Header Gasket - order   07/24/14   x   APT - (951)686-0260

Still to do . . .

Air intake      _____   
Seat      _____   
Seat belts      _____   
Alignment      _____   make appointment - Eric - 9119 W Burleigh (414) 444-8840
Windshield      _____   
Shim rockers      _____   
Plinth      _____   
Wash      _____   
Inspection Checklist      _____   
Fire system      _____   
Ignition wire - set gap      _____   
Cooling system      _____   
Buy 1 gallon of gas      _____   
Belt - order      _____   
Have battery checked      _____   

So all in all, it's doable.  Provided APT has the gasket in stock, there's nothing ugly on the horizon - and the only reason I'm ordering that is to have a spare.

I've already got the suit and safety gear boxed up, taped shut and tagged.

I didn't really think I'd be this far along a month ago - I still need to keep running, but it's not a wind-sprint to the finish line.

Oh - almost forgot . . .

Add to list . . .

Buy Beer    _____


"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll: