Author Topic: Formerly NACA Ducts now copyright issues  (Read 10724 times)

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Offline Stainless1

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Re: Formerly NACA Ducts now copyright issues
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2008, 02:37:43 PM »
Outside of my interest in specific episodes such as Athol Graham's project, I'm really more interested in past projects and changes in rules structure in terms of how they can be applied to what is going on today.

So you just post all the other stuff to annoy some and amaze others with you collection....  :|  You can still put it on your own website.  Since this is one of the last that allow your participation, you might want to start looking into your own if you keep poking the stick at the dog on the chain.

It is also good to see you found the edit button, that way when someone quotes your post and you dont like it, you can change your original to look better... 
« Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 06:27:35 PM by Stainless1 »
Stainless
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John Romero

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Re: Formerly NACA Ducts now copyright issues
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2008, 04:39:48 PM »
...Road & Track doesn't archive 30 year old articles and so derives no revenue from them through ad sales. There are times when the complete reproduction of an article is required for educational purposes and scholarly research and so is covered under the Fair Use doctrine.

Franklin, the specifics of this one article are not the only point. While I agree that it is highly unlikely that the police will kick in SSS's door late one night and confiscate his server due to this one article, it is the knock on effects he has to be concerned about. If it becomes commonplace for users to post complete articles here then SSS must read each one, determine the author, the original publisher and the current copyright holder and THEN make a judgment on the potential of infringement.

What happens when someone else responds in this very thread with a complete scan of a 30 year old SAE paper on NACA ducts? Is that OK? What if the author is dead? Who knows if the author is dead? I guarantee you SAE will come at this site with all guns blazing, cease and desist orders will be flying and SSS will be forced to pay full price for the article posted x the number of page views the article got + SAE's lawyers fees.

I think we have reached the point that all here pretty much knew was coming. Franklin, you have to decide if you are going to abide by this websites Terms of Service or not. If you wish to have your ideas widely circulated and discussed by the LSR community then you will. If the overriding factor in your life is to "never bow down to the Man" regardless of the costs then you wont. It's entirely your choice.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 04:43:13 PM by John Romero »

Ratliff

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Re: Formerly NACA Ducts now copyright issues
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2008, 05:02:06 PM »
...Road & Track doesn't archive 30 year old articles and so derives no revenue from them through ad sales. There are times when the complete reproduction of an article is required for educational purposes and scholarly research and so is covered under the Fair Use doctrine.

Franklin, the specifics of this one article are not the only point. While I agree that it is highly unlikely that the police will kick in SSS's door late one night and confiscate his server due to this one article, it is the knock on effects he has to be concerned about. If it becomes commonplace for users to post complete articles here then SSS must read each one, determine the author, the original publisher and the current copyright holder and THEN make a judgment on the potential of infringement.

What happens when someone else responds in this very thread with a complete scan of a 30 year old SAE paper on NACA ducts? Is that OK? What if the author is dead? Who knows if the author is dead? I guarantee you SAE will come at this site with all guns blazing, cease and desist orders will be flying and SSS will be forced to pay full price for the article posted x the number of page views the article got + SAE's lawyers fees.

I think we have reached the point that all here pretty much knew was coming. Franklin, you have to decide if you are going to abide by this websites Terms of Service or not. If you wish to have your ideas widely circulated and discussed by the LSR community then you will. If the overriding factor in your life is to "never bow down to the Man" regardless of the costs then you wont. It's entirely your choice.

Okay, yes. if a lot of people started doing it then that could be a problem. Sooner or later, some eager beaver would post an AIAA or SAE paper that is currently archived on their site and requires payment or subscription for access.

John Romero

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Re: Formerly NACA Ducts now copyright issues
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2008, 05:17:03 PM »
Okay, yes. if a lot of people started doing it then that could be a problem. Sooner or later, some eager beaver would post an AIAA or SAE paper that is currently archived on their site and requires payment or subscription for access.

Right. And he cant make a rule that says "Franklin can post full page scans because he knows when something is too old to be a legal concern but nobody else can". He  has to think about forum wide rules that apply to everyone. Sure, it sucks if there are some good articles that likely have no copyright concerns but many readers wont "get" the difference.

I really do suggest you look into those blogs I posted up earlier, it will not only solve all these issues but they will give you much greater freedom to put your ideas forward.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Formerly NACA Ducts now copyright issues
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2008, 08:30:57 PM »

The basis for the LA Times suit was "The Plaintiffs allege that Defendants' copying and archiving decreases revenue from ads and from accessing archived materials." Road & Track doesn't archive 30 year old articles and so derives no revenue from them through ad sales. There are times when the complete reproduction of an article is required for educational purposes and scholarly research and so is covered under the Fair Use doctrine.

 ". . . and for accessing archived material".

In the example you are arguing, note that Road and Track sells back issues, therefore they do archive and make available for sale past issues of their magazines, and derive revenue by doing so.  As to whether or not available issues go back thirty years is a red herring - the copyright stays with the owner, and it is at the sole discretion of the owner as to how the material may be commercially used.  Just because a publisher chooses to no longer make available a copy does not, in any way, diminish the rights of the copyright owner. 

Jon is responsible for all copyrighted material that appears on his commercial site.  Therefore, as a commercial forum, Jon would be held liable under Federal law for any unauthorized use of copyrighted material.  Furthermore, any burden of proof regarding the fair use argument would fall to Jon.

Again, I stress that the likelihood of repercussions is slim, but the precedent of LA Times v. Free Republic opens the door for that.  The act of defending such arguments would fall to Slim, and I suspect he doesn't want to go there.

So the clear and obvious way of continuing to legally post what I think is often some nifty stuff would be to get the written permission from the copyright holder to do so. 
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Formerly NACA Ducts now copyright issues
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2008, 09:33:49 PM »
Please excuse me for moving these posts - I didn't want to stand in the way of NACA ducts as a topic, and felt that this discussion would be better served under a new heading. 

Below is the most recent quote from Ratliff, which appeared under the former heading, which I will simply cut and paste into this one - Franklin, my apology for not being quick enough to catch it.  It is in response to the previous post by myself, and Jon, if you can move this entire thread over to "non-lsr", I'll shepherd it from here.

"The Fair Use doctrine is pretty broad in regards to the noncommercial use of copyrighted material for scholarly research and educational purposes. However, as John Romero has already pointed out, if a lot of people start posting articles sooner or later somebody is going to get careless and post copyrighted material from which someone is currently deriving a revenue stream."

While I was away, I looked up this link from the New York Times.  Seemed appropriate to all sides of this discussion -

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/magazine/24wwln-ethicist-t.html?scp=1&sq=copyright+ethicist&st=nyt

Chris Conrad
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Ratliff

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Re: Formerly NACA Ducts now copyright issues
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2008, 10:08:10 PM »
Please excuse me for moving these posts - I didn't want to stand in the way of NACA ducts as a topic, and felt that this discussion would be better served under a new heading. 

Below is the most recent quote from Ratliff, which appeared under the former heading, which I will simply cut and paste into this one - Franklin, my apology for not being quick enough to catch it.  It is in response to the previous post by myself, and Jon, if you can move this entire thread over to "non-lsr", I'll shepherd it from here.

"The Fair Use doctrine is pretty broad in regards to the noncommercial use of copyrighted material for scholarly research and educational purposes. However, as John Romero has already pointed out, if a lot of people start posting articles sooner or later somebody is going to get careless and post copyrighted material from which someone is currently deriving a revenue stream."

While I was away, I looked up this link from the New York Times.  Seemed appropriate to all sides of this discussion -

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/magazine/24wwln-ethicist-t.html?scp=1&sq=copyright+ethicist&st=nyt

Chris Conrad

Good thoughts in the NY Times column. Thanks.

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Formerly NACA Ducts now copyright issues
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2008, 11:26:24 PM »
Since this topic is copyrights, and had been split, I moved it out of technical discussions and into non-LSR.  I personally don't want the website shut down because a few want to post old, new or any materials without the copyright owners permission...
Let's try to not drive Jon the the spot that Jon was when he shut it down...  :x

My suggestion, no possibly copyrighted materials from other sources from this day forward, only links to websites, or self hosted, or posted with Jon's permission after he has reviewed.  That protects our interests and Jon's interest.  Jon, what do you say?  It is you site and your call, we will all try to live within your requirements.
Stainless
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Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Formerly NACA Ducts now copyright issues
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2008, 09:16:06 AM »
I say, and thanks for asking me, that it's still sort of early Monday morning and I've not had a chance to do more than read quickly through what you suggest, Mr. Stainless, so I won't take a position yet.  But I'll do so soon.  Right now I'm watching the guys working on building our new garage and Tim, who's staining the new siding on the house.

Back later -- gotta go spend some quality time with Nancy before I head to town.
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Offline panic

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Re: Formerly NACA Ducts now copyright issues
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2008, 10:38:38 AM »
"no possibly copyrighted materials"

It's a good idea, much like "try not to have fatal accidents".
With the same caveat: exactly how do you do that?
I've been threatened for quoting myself: the note said "you stole that from my friend's site", which in fact had stolen it from me.
What insures complete protection against the indignation of offended authors and their lawyers?

For those under 12: there is no such thing.

Offline panic

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Re: Formerly NACA Ducts now copyright issues
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2008, 10:43:18 AM »
BTW: here's the opening page of every one of my approximately 100 tech articles:
"Copyright 2008 Jeffrey Diamond
All rights reserved.
Reproduction or distribution of this material, in whole or in part, for any purpose except personal non-commercial use, is strictly prohibited without the prior written consent of the author.
Violations will be prosecuted to the full extent of the statute."

No one pays any attention.

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Formerly NACA Ducts now copyright issues
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2008, 11:08:56 AM »
Panic:

For the sake of this discussion I'll refer to your copyright statement (above) and focus on the word "personal".  By posting on the site something such as text from a book or article -- the only "personal" gain that I can see would be in thereby being able to say that you wanted to show off your personal knowledge/library/whatever.  The site exists to act as a community -- and is therefore far and away not personal, is it?

AS for no one paying attention -- does that make the statement/threat any less real?  You could prosecute should you choose to do so (assuming you had the interest and the legal wherewithal to do it.

Thanks, one and all, for following this thread.  I appreciate your help and explanations of the fine points.
Jon E. Wennerberg
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Offline panic

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Re: Formerly NACA Ducts now copyright issues
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2008, 12:51:06 PM »
To prosecute requires harm.
To sue requires loss.
You have to prove one of these, or you're wasting your time - and even if you win your attorney will keep it.
Suing just to get someone to stop is like throwing money over the cliff.
My warning is, very simply, a bluff, since I can't substantiate lost revenue or damage to my reputation.

John Romero

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Re: Formerly NACA Ducts now copyright issues
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2008, 03:02:18 PM »
To prosecute requires harm.
To sue requires loss.
You have to prove one of these, or you're wasting your time - and even if you win your attorney will keep it.
Suing just to get someone to stop is like throwing money over the cliff.
My warning is, very simply, a bluff, since I can't substantiate lost revenue or damage to my reputation.

To successfully prosecute requires harm
To successfully sue requires loss.

But neither is required to make your life hell and cost you real $.

Offline panic

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Re: Formerly NACA Ducts now copyright issues
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2008, 06:07:32 PM »
Thanks, should have made that distinction clear.