Author Topic: Mid- Engine Modified Sports  (Read 784793 times)

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Offline tauruck

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Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #1560 on: December 27, 2018, 07:44:54 PM »
Hey Neil, sorry to hear this especially after all the time and effort you put in.
 :evil: :evil:

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #1561 on: December 27, 2018, 09:30:46 PM »
There is a bright side, Neil, the CR will be higher after the bore job.

Offline manta22

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Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #1562 on: December 28, 2018, 07:32:12 PM »
I removed #1 cylinder rod bearing cap to inspect the bearing surface. There are some soft metallic particles embedded in the surface. The crank looks OK. It looks like I'll need new bearings. I'll have a look at a main or two tomorrow. I wonder what that stuff is?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline robfrey

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Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #1563 on: December 28, 2018, 08:42:46 PM »
Hi Neil,
You may be able to get away with hone and Line to Line coating of the piston skirts. It would save a bunch of money and be easier than fitting new pistons and rings.
For those not familiar with Line to Line, it is an abradable coating applied to piston skirts.
It sounds like you may want to put that engine on an engine dyno and work out any other tuning issues while it is out.


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Offline fordboy628

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Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #1564 on: December 28, 2018, 11:06:58 PM »

I removed #1 cylinder rod bearing cap to inspect the bearing surface. There are some soft metallic particles embedded in the surface. The crank looks OK. It looks like I'll need new bearings. I'll have a look at a main or two tomorrow. I wonder what that stuff is?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Neil,

Looked at your photo, needs more magnification, BUT, looks to me like "machining debris".   Ie: the various micro-bits of iron, honing grit, etc, that might remain in the block, heads, oil lines, oil tanks, etc, etc.

I know YOU are meticulous, but I'm wondering if you paid anyone to "clean the block/crank for assembly"?   It is VERY difficult to get all the associated "crap" out of a block,by just running it through a "jet washer".   Blind spots and drilled passages can retain quite a bit of "swarf".  And although most manufacturers of bits are well meaning, I check EVERYTHING.    YMMV, and after all it's your wallet . . . . .   :-D

My method ( keep in mind my rampant paranoia . . . . .)

1/   Honing particles and grit are removed with mineral spirit or naphtha and brushes.   ALL plugs removed from ALL oil passages, ALL brushed out.   Cylinders brushed out also, especially the bottom edges where honing grit collects.
      Deburr  the bottoms of the cylinders, so they don't slice the part of the piston that protrudes below the cylinder at BDC.  Get a brush kit, that's what they are for.   Don't forget the threaded holes . . . . even new blocks can have
      LOTS of debris . . . .

2/   Detergent degrease with HOT water. By hand or jet washer, doesn't matter.   BUT, if the jet washer water is filthy, don't expect your block/heads/whatever, to be clean.

3/   HOT water/compressed air rinse.   Hot water alone can work.

4/   WD40 or other water displacer spray to prevent flash rust.

5/   Compressed air dry.

6/   Most important of all: Thorough inspection!    White paper towels or new lint free rags, or whatever, wetted with naphtha or "Brakleen", should be wiped on a random cylinder.   Crankshaft oil passages can be checked with
      "Brakleen" and a brush that fits the oil passage.   Just like a "Marine Inspection" your block has to pass "the white glove test", AND, a flashlight inspection of the oil passages.
      If it doesn't pass my inspection, SOMEBODY gets to "start over" . . . . . .

I'm certain others can offer their methods that work.   As far as I am concerned though:  "Cleanliness is more important than godliness."   Over the years though, several of my cleaning guys have given me un-godlike nicknames . . . . .   Use your imagination   :wink:

JMHO, most machine shops do a poor job of cleaning parts for assembly.   Most will not pass the "white glove test".   My take is that your engine is going to make enough micro-particles during the bedding-in process.  It doesn't need more to start off.

 :cheers:  :dhorse:  :cheers:
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Offline tauruck

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Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #1565 on: December 29, 2018, 10:01:18 AM »
I've always said I'm more of an assembler than a builder and was taught by the best.
If it breaks it won't be because of some foreign body left over from machining.
In short, it's only done when that paper towel comes out as clean as it went in.
If it takes a week or more to clean the parts so be it.

I feel for you Neil.🙏

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #1566 on: December 29, 2018, 10:34:03 AM »
An oil analysis might be a big help.

Offline manta22

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Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #1567 on: December 29, 2018, 12:16:43 PM »
Fordboy, I appreciate your (and everyone else's) opinion. It does look like loose soft metal (aluminum?) swarf that was not completely flushed out of the block. That is completely my fault, I should have been more careful.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline manta22

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Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #1568 on: December 29, 2018, 12:22:13 PM »
Hi Neil,
You may be able to get away with hone and Line to Line coating of the piston skirts. It would save a bunch of money and be easier than fitting new pistons and rings.
For those not familiar with Line to Line, it is an abradable coating applied to piston skirts.
It sounds like you may want to put that engine on an engine dyno and work out any other tuning issues while it is out.


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Thanks for directing me to Line-to-Line, Rob. I had not heard of them before. Their coating might be able to make my pistons still usable after honing the cylinders. They were new Cosworth forged pistons with a ceramic heat barrier on the crowns so they are not cheap to replace. Have you used those coatings from L-L?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline robfrey

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Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #1569 on: December 29, 2018, 12:29:08 PM »
Yes, we have been using them for years.
It give the closest possible piston to bore fit and helps to keep rings square to bore for better seal and more hp.


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Offline manta22

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Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #1570 on: December 29, 2018, 12:32:18 PM »
Thanks, Rob. Your experience is a good recommendation.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline manta22

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Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #1571 on: December 29, 2018, 07:38:16 PM »
I pulled off all the bearing caps...ugly. The rod bearings are marginally worse than the mains for some reason. The crank looks OK, I'll just have it polished while I have the engine apart. It is STD now so there's no point in grinding the journals smaller unless it's necessary.

The pistons look OK, a little wear on the thrust side but not of any concern. The rings actually look OK but I'll have a look with a magnifying glass before a final decision. The pins are fine and the rods look straight so that's a relief. I removed the Erson timing gear drive and the gears and bearings look OK. The Crower roller cam turns easily and exhibits no damage or undue wear on any of its lobes. The oil pump turns freely without any noises. I'll need to order new bearings and a bunch of gaskets soon. The question now is whether a light hone will clean up the cylinder walls so that I can re-use my pistons & rings or whether I'll need to have it bored +10 over and replace the pistons & rings or have the skirts treated by L-to-L and go with new rings.

Whichever way it goes, I'll be doubly sure to clean out the oil passages myself this time instead of relying on someone else.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline tauruck

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Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #1572 on: December 29, 2018, 07:57:25 PM »
Big decisions Neil.

So you think there was swarf in the oil passages?.

Offline WOODY@DDLLC

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Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #1573 on: December 29, 2018, 09:46:54 PM »
Neil, if you have access to a way-back machine, maybe this will help!  :-o :-D
How many of youse younger guys remember seeing/using one of these things?  :? :? :cheers:
There's always knurling, too!  :-D :-D :-D :dhorse:
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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Mid- Engine Modified Sports
« Reply #1574 on: December 29, 2018, 10:56:29 PM »
Neil, sometimes the coating comes off of a shell and it is pounded back into the shell at a different location.  This appears to be contamination from an external source, but it is not.  Shells contaminated from an outside source often show embedded particles without a lot of pitting elsewhere on the shells.
The dark color of the big end in the photo suggests another problem source, like low oil pressure.  I am not sure how the oil passages go, but if the rod big ends are downstream from the main bearings, and they show more distress, this is another indicator of an oil pressure problem.