Poll

who thinks Athol Graham's crash was hiis fault

I do
5 (13.2%)
Not me
7 (18.4%)
Athol Who?
4 (10.5%)
Doesn't matter he crashed
19 (50%)
People don't crash cars, cars just crash
3 (7.9%)

Total Members Voted: 34

Author Topic: Athol Graham crash probably not his fault  (Read 31016 times)

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Ratliff

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Re: Athol Graham crash probably not his fault
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2008, 03:16:57 PM »
where you was in 1978, 1982, 1997, 2001...........??????

I saw Craig Arfons attempt on the World Water Speed Record in 1989 and Art Arfons attempt on the World Land Speed Record in 1990. There have been no attempts on the WWSR since Arfons.

Nobody from Noble's Thrust 2 team saw Warby's 1978 attempt. Nobody from Warby's team saw Noble's 1981/82/83 attempts, although Warby was in the states at the time running a pair of J-85 jet Funny Cars built by Craig Arfons.

Gary Gabelich saw Lee Taylor's 1980 attempt on the WWSR and Noble's 1983 (maybe 1982) attempt on the WLSR. Below is a link to articles on Taylor's 1980 project.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19568&highlight=lee+taylor

« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 03:25:22 PM by Ratliff »

Offline PorkPie

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Re: Athol Graham crash probably not his fault
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2008, 03:42:40 PM »
I was in 1978 on the Blowering Dam,
1982 at first at Bonneville - than Black Rock
1996/97 at first at Bonneville - than Black Rock
2001 at Bonneville......if you accept wheel driven records.......

I could make this list a little bit longer.....but for what......Stainless wrote it before.....
Pork Pie

Photoartist & Historian & 200 MPH Club Member (I/GL 202.8 mph in the orig. Bockscar #1000)

Ratliff

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Re: Athol Graham crash probably not his fault
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2008, 03:51:51 PM »
I was in 1978 on the Blowering Dam,
1982 at first at Bonneville - than Black Rock
1996/97 at first at Bonneville - than Black Rock
2001 at Bonneville......if you accept wheel driven records.......

I could make this list a little bit longer.....but for what......Stainless wrote it before.....

Last does not mean only. It simply refers to chronological order. 1989 and 1990 are in chronological order after 1978 and 1982 and before 1996.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 03:56:50 PM by Ratliff »

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Athol Graham crash probably not his fault
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2008, 04:03:13 PM »
And what, may I ask, does who was where when have to do with the topic of this thread?  Gentlemen, let's try to stay on the topic.  The topic was not a request for information, for that matter, but rather a statement from the history books and therefore not really in keeping with the idea of landracing.com providing a place for the lively interchange of ideas and the offering up of relevant information needed to further the build of race vehicles.  Sure, some off-topic stuff is inevitable -- but when it's this far from the topic -- I say it's time to find something else to do with this forum.

Regards,
Jon E. Wennerberg
 a/k/a Seldom Seen Slim
 Skandia, Michigan
 (that's way up north)
2 Club member x2
Owner of landracing.com

Ratliff

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Re: Athol Graham crash probably not his fault
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2008, 04:12:12 PM »
And what, may I ask, does who was where when have to do with the topic of this thread?  Gentlemen, let's try to stay on the topic.  The topic was not a request for information, for that matter, but rather a statement from the history books and therefore not really in keeping with the idea of landracing.com providing a place for the lively interchange of ideas and the offering up of relevant information needed to further the build of race vehicles.  Sure, some off-topic stuff is inevitable -- but when it's this far from the topic -- I say it's time to find something else to do with this forum.

Regards,


To get this thread back on topic, the fact we're able to have an informed discussion about the possible causes of Graham's crash is due in part to a photographer being able to shoot the wreckage of Graham's car without interference. People can see for themselves what we're talking about and form their own opinion, even though there are still those who think a veil of secrecy should be imposed on any fatal accident.

Below is a link to a photo of Arfons slowing down after a run with his Green Monster a.k.a. "Anteater" Allison V-12 streamliner. The fact Arfons (in 1961) was able to make a successful run of 313 mph sitting even farther forward than Graham to me lends further credence to the theory Graham's crash was due to the disintegration of his rear wheels (although Arfons could drive anything).

http://www.americanjetcars.com/arfons/art/art55.htm

« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 04:41:15 PM by Ratliff »

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Athol Graham crash probably not his fault
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2008, 06:49:33 PM »
Name:     Ratliff
Posts:    269 (12.227 per day)
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline desotoman

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Re: Athol Graham crash probably not his fault
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2008, 08:29:55 PM »
Here is part of a video that the BBC did on Bonneville. In this clip it shows Athol Graham and his car. 

Tom G.


land speed in the 60's seen thru the eyes of the BBC...



In Search Of Speed - The Battle Of Bonneville 2/6 09:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Job736g6OW0&feature=related



I love the USA. How much longer will we be a free nation?

Asking questions is one's only way of getting answers.

The rational person lets verified facts form or modify his opinion.  The ideologue ignores verified facts which don't fit his preconceived opinions.

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Athol Graham crash probably not his fault
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2008, 11:53:11 PM »
Hey Tom, great video.  Watched them all.  Even saw a little Red, White and Blue lakester run by in video 1. Thanks for the link.
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline AJR192

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Re: Athol Graham crash probably not his fault
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2008, 12:56:31 AM »
My friend said that the spirit of salt lake was on display at the American Le Mans race at Miller motorsports park last month. Good to know Graham's family still cares enough about history to display the car........

Ratliff

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Re: Athol Graham crash probably not his fault
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2008, 01:32:27 PM »
Here is part of a video that the BBC did on Bonneville. In this clip it shows Athol Graham and his car. 

Tom G.


land speed in the 60's seen thru the eyes of the BBC...



In Search Of Speed - The Battle Of Bonneville 2/6 09:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Job736g6OW0&feature=related





The very first car you see in that video, the #555 streamliner, was Mickey Thompson's twin-engine dragster that became the prototype to Challenger I.

I did the design calculations on Art Arfons centrifuge. Arfons had a 2g car, so I sized the centrifuge to generate 3g, using a 30 foot arm turning 15 rpm.

Offline desotoman

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Re: Athol Graham crash probably not his fault
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2008, 04:56:51 PM »
Hey Tom, great video.  Watched them all.  Even saw a little Red, White and Blue lakester run by in video 1. Thanks for the link.

Stainless,

You are welcome. I knew you would like that first video. LOL.

Tom G.
I love the USA. How much longer will we be a free nation?

Asking questions is one's only way of getting answers.

The rational person lets verified facts form or modify his opinion.  The ideologue ignores verified facts which don't fit his preconceived opinions.

Blue

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Re: Athol Graham crash probably not his fault
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2008, 03:37:22 AM »
I did the design calculations on Art Arfons centrifuge. Arfons had a 2g car, so I sized the centrifuge to generate 3g, using a 30 foot arm turning 15 rpm.
So YOU designed Art's centrifuge...

You're far more experienced than I thought and older too! :-o

Go work for a race team and get some experience to go with all of that literature.  The only issue is that you may have to be a little more humble when it's someone else's car and life on the line.

Many of the rest of us have bet our lives (literally) on our work.  Does that make us better than those that haven't?

Yes, it darn well does.

Ratliff

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Re: Athol Graham crash probably not his fault
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2008, 08:41:58 AM »
I did the design calculations on Art Arfons centrifuge. Arfons had a 2g car, so I sized the centrifuge to generate 3g, using a 30 foot arm turning 15 rpm.
So YOU designed Art's centrifuge...

You're far more experienced than I thought and older too! :-o

Go work for a race team and get some experience to go with all of that literature.  The only issue is that you may have to be a little more humble when it's someone else's car and life on the line.

Many of the rest of us have bet our lives (literally) on our work.  Does that make us better than those that haven't?

Yes, it darn well does.

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,4008.15.html

(Eric) "The 21% empty weight fraction and the attending ~10% structural fraction for a 1500 to 2000 psf vehicle are more than a factor of 2 away from being rational.

This is a difficulty that I have run into with a lot of the people "designing" ALSR cars.  Stresses are factors of 4 to 6 greater than any wheel driven car, 10X for Mach 2.  Think about that factor of 10 very carefully.  The design database of supersonic-at-sea-level capable aircraft and missiles provides plenty of structural weight and design guidance that simply cannot be ignored.

If anyone wants to pencil out something like this, a 1000 mph FIA record requires a 35 to 40% structural mass fraction with advanced materials, straight load paths, and good structural design.  Poor design or heavy materials can raise this to 60 to 75%.  Note that the "structural" mass fraction does not include the engine.

For reference, the structural fraction of our current project is nearly 60% due to the use of mild steel and a far-from-optimum structural layout.  Thrust SSC was about 50%.  10% is irrational."

(Franklin) "The recoverable reuseable solid rocket boosters on the shuttle each weigh about 100,000 lbs empty and 1,000,000 lbs loaded. That's nine times the structure weight in propellant. The steam rocket car would only need to hold about three times the structure weight in propellant.

With a weight of about 7.5 lbs per square foot for 3/16" steel sheet, a tank 25 feet long and 2 feet in diameter would have about 1,180.125 lbs of steel in its skin. Don't know what the weight from the end caps would be. So with the configuration of three 25 foot long 2 foot diameter tanks I described earlier, the steam rocket car using steel tanks would have about 3,540.375 lbs of steel in the tank skins (about the same weight as a J-79 engine). Using titanium instead of steel for the tanks would cut the tank weight in half. If titanium instead of steel were used for the tanks, the 4,000 lbs empty weight used in Craig Farnsworth's performance calculations would be attainable and very realistic."

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Athol Graham crash probably not his fault
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2008, 09:29:07 AM »
FR I hate to ask, was there a point to quoting yourself from another thread or you just still working on post count....  :?
(this gives you the chance for another count you know...  :roll: )
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Ratliff

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Re: Athol Graham crash probably not his fault
« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2008, 09:32:00 AM »
FR I hate to ask, was there a point to quoting yourself from another thread or you just still working on post count....  :?
(this gives you the chance for another count you know...  :roll: )

There were two quotes, not one. The first one was from Eric. The second one was my response to Eric.

The point was if someone who has yet to even roll their jet car under its own power is going to lecture me on what I do or do not know, or on what can and cannot be done, they should at least do the math to see what would be required to make something work.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 09:38:43 AM by Ratliff »