Author Topic: efi tuning at bonneville  (Read 15792 times)

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Offline 1 fast evo 2

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Re: efi tuning at bonneville
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2008, 09:42:52 AM »
Stan back- I know of the galant that holds the record in my class, and have actually talked to the mech./builder of the car but not the owner/driver. The mech. is a very nice guy and really knows what he is doing.

Rex- the mechanical pump I will be running is not just some mech. pump but is a race pump as ddahlgren is speaking of and they make more than enough flow at lowwer rpm than is needed to run the car, he also touched on one of the reasons I want to use it is if it dies the car dies and doesn't nuke the motor.
As for the injectors, the turbo on the car at the maxton race earlier this year would max them out with the current fuel pump setup. The car has already made 930 hp at all 4 wheels very easily, actually so easily I would run at this level at b-ville without thinking twice about it. With the boost cranked on this turbo it should put down at least 1050-1100 awhp which is approx 1200 crank hp.
P.S. at maxton the car was at only about 800 awhp and the pass was no good due to me having to get out of the gas for 2.25 seconds at 200 mph in fifth gear which slowwed the car down to 185 mph and then I reaccellerated up to 210 mph, so she has a bit left in her.

ddahlgren-I am planning to run either the waterman or areomotive pump and I was going to run the large aeromotive rergulator but if you rec. the kinsler I will try that one.
I have a question for you as I know you have alot of experiance, I am doing a drysump set-up and would like to drive the fuel pump off the end of the oil pump but I have heard of people having trouble with the belt drive with it like this, I would like to know if you have seen this alot or maybe not at all, oh ya it will only be a 3 stage pump-1 supply and 2 scavenge.

Oh and about the aluminium rods, I have gone that route this year to help the rod bearings last a little longer also another reason for the dry sump. It seems to have helped quite a bit. Previosly have reved it to 10,000 rpm but this year it will be moved up to 11,000 rpm for drag racing and standing mile races at b-ville I will gear it as tall as possible but will still be at least 9,500 rpm.

I have to run to work,hopefully we can talk more later.

 mike reichen
E.C.T.A. 200 MPH club
Winner HOTROD TOPSPEED CHALLENGE (superstreet) 2008
My EVO 2 - 8.96@158 mph in the 1/4
221.4 mph at Maxton sept. 08
223.6 mph at the Texas mile oct. 08
237.6 mph at Maxton april 2010

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: efi tuning at bonneville
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2008, 11:23:30 AM »
Mike,
That is one stout piece! Other than the alum. rods what else have you done to the bottom end? With 4WD you should have a real advantage at Bonneville and I want to be there when you get to qualify for the long course by going 175+ on the short course. Should be something to see!!

I would certainly go with Dave D's suggestions as he is a "been there, done that, got the tee shirt" kind of guy and going with the Kinsler regulator is great advice. I have never seen the inside of the Kinsler unit but have seen several of the less expensive ones and was not impressed. I also like the idea of driving the fuel pump from the back of the dry sump pump, I did the design for this type of fuel pump drive for Drake Engineering back in the 80s on a 2.3 Ford banger, it worked quite well but the injection was a Kuglefisher mechanical type and not electronic and we didn't make 1000+hp either!

You think you can keep your foot in it thru the 5 mile???

Rex
Rex

Not much matters and the rest doesn't matter at all.

Offline Dynoroom

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Re: efi tuning at bonneville
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2008, 12:09:19 PM »
I don't like electric fuel (or water) pumps at Bonneville. I've run Hilborn type pumps for years and would bet you'll see more & more folks making the switch even at the drags in the not to distant future.

Here are a few shots of some record setters.......




We've even run a mechanical pump like in the first picture with a carb to set the B/GR record a few years ago.
Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline ddahlgren

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Re: efi tuning at bonneville
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2008, 01:39:03 PM »
If there is room on the front drive personally I like a separate fuel pump drive so I can adjust it's drive ratio to suit fuel requirements and the oil pump to suit it's as well. Should they work out the same great run one belt and pulley if not do a separate one. The capacity of the drive power wise far exceeds the demand and a side benifit to both on one is you take a bit of load off of the crank snout and front main bearing as well.

The Kinsler regulator is a work of art and you will never look back and wonder why you bought it. IMHO Aeromotive is consumer grade stuff built for a price and a market. The Kinsler part also goes on IRL cars not built for a price just as good as it can be.
More scavage stages is much better 2 is sort of light duty for the power figures quoted IMHO....

Personally 3 in the pan 1 in the head and 1 for the turbo if it is mounted low in the car. A low pressure oil pan will de aerate the oil and everything lives longer and cooler.

Dave

Offline 1 fast evo 2

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Re: efi tuning at bonneville
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2008, 03:48:41 PM »
Rex-as for the bottom end the mitsus don't need much, it has a stock crank,arias forged pistons(thanks guys),alum rods,o-ringed block,and alot of good machine work.
I don't think it will take til the 5 mile to top it out, I think it will run out of gear.

ddahlgren-let me get this straight, it's better to use 2 drive belts to seperate the oil and fuel curves-I don't have the room at the crank to drive both units but I do have the opportunity to drive the fuel pump off of one of  the overhead cams, the only issue with this is it's more cluttered and I will have to plumb in a small electric pump to prime the system to get it started.
As for the dry sump pump and fuel pump what do you rec.-if I drive it off of the cam the bracket is, I believe set up for a waterman pump(are they universal?) I was looking at the R&R dry sump
Do you really think this small engine will need 5 stages ?
The turbo drains into the pan and has a pretty good angle now , if we use the newwer setup it will have even more angle.
I was going to run 1 to the head split into 2 - 1 on either side in the back
and 1 to the pan again split- at this time it is only going to be a modified stock pan
if I run to many stages won't the vacuum become too high.
oh while I am at it do you rec. filling the drains in the head so the pump can scavange it properly and keep the crank case seperate from the head.
What if any ventilation do you need?

Sorry for all the question but I have never set-up one of these things before and it would help alot if you guys can point me in the right direction as it would really save alot of time, I think I already ran out of time to get ready. HAHA
E.C.T.A. 200 MPH club
Winner HOTROD TOPSPEED CHALLENGE (superstreet) 2008
My EVO 2 - 8.96@158 mph in the 1/4
221.4 mph at Maxton sept. 08
223.6 mph at the Texas mile oct. 08
237.6 mph at Maxton april 2010

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: efi tuning at bonneville
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2008, 03:59:42 PM »
Mike:

Splitting suction lines doesn't work. Think about it. As soon as one side runs out of oil the other side of the split won't draw. It's much easier to pump (suck) air.

Pete

Offline 1 fast evo 2

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Re: efi tuning at bonneville
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2008, 06:24:09 PM »
O.k so you need a suction line to each side. That brings up another question what happens to the pump when its not pulling oil and it's just pulling a vacuum, I assume it is built to handle this.

         Mike Reichen
E.C.T.A. 200 MPH club
Winner HOTROD TOPSPEED CHALLENGE (superstreet) 2008
My EVO 2 - 8.96@158 mph in the 1/4
221.4 mph at Maxton sept. 08
223.6 mph at the Texas mile oct. 08
237.6 mph at Maxton april 2010

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: efi tuning at bonneville
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2008, 06:43:21 PM »
There's obviously no problem there as we always use more evacuation capacity than pressure. The only problems I see with the split lines is that oil will tend to build up in one area until there is sufficient to cover the other inlet and I'm not sure but the resulting pulses in the system may add stress to the components such as belts and shafts.

Pete

Offline willieworld

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Re: efi tuning at bonneville
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2008, 06:51:46 PM »
not to mention with no oil at one pickup the pump will be sucking air --tried that on my harley and killed the pump    willie buchta
willie-dpombatmir-buchta

Offline Harold Bettes

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Re: efi tuning at bonneville
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2008, 09:41:23 PM »
Assuming that the ignition timing was set correctly and if the fuel was the same stuff, the timing will remain the same at elevation. I hesitate to suggest to pull any fuel out of the thing because I also assume that your fuel map is correctly done and the ECU should chase that as well. :lol: IF the fuel changes, then it is a new ballgame. :roll:

The biggest change up here is that the intercoolers (and the radiators) are not as efficient because the density of the atmosphere is much less and the heat transfer does not work as well. :mrgreen:

This message is coming to you from 7200' MSL. :-D

Regards,
HB2 :-)
If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

As iron sharpens iron, one man sharpens another.

Offline Stan Back

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Re: efi tuning at bonneville
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2008, 11:00:41 PM »
I think that, as simple as it is, that's the answer!
Past (Only) Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- 19 Years of Bonneville and/or El Mirage Street Roadster Records

Offline ddahlgren

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Re: efi tuning at bonneville
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2008, 10:34:11 AM »
If there is no room on the front though assuming a RWD car not a FWD where the crank is aimed at the frame.. then back of the oil pump next best place in my mind. The cam drive is pretty scared territory as I see it.
Dry sump 2 in the pan and one in the head should work fine. I would not bother to plug the oil drains from the head to the block. No 'split lines' ever.... I like to vent the engine to the oil tank with a -12 line and put a breather on the tank, K&N sells some good ones. As far as vaccum goes it is your friend it deairiates the oil. The only thing you have to be careful of is the piston pins getting too dry if you are relying on splash to get oil to them. The same goes for under side of the piston cooling. Does this have squirters aimed at the pistons like a 2jz toyota?? Oh and NO FILTERS ON THE SUCTION SIDE OF THE PUMP!! PRESSURE OR SCAVENGE!! It is better to hurt the pump than starve the engine of oil.... Don't cheap out and have all the scavenge stages get ported internally to 1 -12 line either. Build a manifold so each stage goes into it then a -16 to the large screen type filter(Oberg) from the manifold... then to the tank. Pressure side is from tank botton to suction side of pump out of pressure stage to a large 2 quart oil filter to oil cooler if used though not needed to engine.

As far as intercooler goes I trust it is ice water to air deal so who cares what the altitude is???
Dave

Offline Harold Bettes

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Re: efi tuning at bonneville
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2008, 02:50:29 PM »
Dave has made a very good point about the intercooler question. I was thinking about only air to air. :mrgreen: Duh for me! :?

It reminded me of when all the high zoot open wheel crews were cleaving away body panels at the Denver Gran Prix several years ago to try and improve heat removal in our thin air. :roll:

Regards to All,
HB2 :-)
If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

As iron sharpens iron, one man sharpens another.

Offline 1 fast evo 2

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Re: efi tuning at bonneville
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2008, 03:27:09 PM »
Ya the intercooler is an ice water to air set-up so if I get the sizing right on the reserve tank for b-ville the intake temps should be under 100* even at bonneville.

ddahlgren- the engine does point at the frame rail as it is an allwheel drive.

where do you take the vent line to the tank from ?-the top front of the valve cover ?

So you think in my set-up that the best place to drive the fuel pump would be off the back of the oil pump ? thats what I thought as long as there won't be any belt problems.

Also yes I have oil squiters in this engine.

E.C.T.A. 200 MPH club
Winner HOTROD TOPSPEED CHALLENGE (superstreet) 2008
My EVO 2 - 8.96@158 mph in the 1/4
221.4 mph at Maxton sept. 08
223.6 mph at the Texas mile oct. 08
237.6 mph at Maxton april 2010

Offline ddahlgren

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Re: efi tuning at bonneville
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2008, 08:25:04 PM »
I think I remember you mentioned you race at places other than the salt flats so you know what G forces are predominent in your car best, so wherever there is air and not oil most of the time..LOL.. If in the cam cover be sure to not plug the oil returns to the block or you will need 2 vent lines. Good to hear your have the squirters they add tons of life to the pistons.Something aimed at the valve springs is not a bad idea either if the cams aggessive enough to warrent it. If you do some searches on dry sump stuff there is a prety cool trick I have brought up several times of having about 10 feet of 3/8 steel tubing coiled up in the tank connected to the engine like it is a heater core so you bypass some water into the line in the tank. It works as an oil heater and cooler at the same time as long as you run a thermostat in the engine. I like the isea of running one as the engine warms quickly the oil does as well with this setup and you can minimize run time on a race engine to mostly racing and not warming it up.
Dave