Normally Aspirated Bikes in Supercharged classes at Maxton

[Seldom Seen Slim]

The ECTA rules and the whole danged organization are relatively new -- and were set up with the idea of creating an interest in that geographical part of the country that didn't have a long tradition of land speed racing nor nostalgia for "roadsters".  The way I understand it is that John Beckett and the other founding fathers of ECTA wanted to make the events more interesting to potential racers, and one way to do that is to offer a "record" to as many competitors as possible -- ergo the difference in class structure and class changing.  If the ECTA rules aren't what you want to run under - then it's your prerogative to not go to Maxton to run.  The ECTA rules are morphing, by decision of the directors, towards the SCTA rules - with the intent of making it easier for an ECTA-approved vehicle to race in an SCTA event. Stay tuned for the rest of this year, or for another few years, okay?

[wfojohn]

then it's your prerogative to not go to Maxton to run.


Jon,

We want them tyo run but if bumping out of class doen't feel right, then just run what you are built and teched for.

Personally I don't think we will ever bump up like we did last year, it was fun while doing it but as time has passed I am not a comfortable with it. My son who rides feels more okay about bumping up than I do so I will have to wait and see.

Hope to make a meet or two this year, the new shop and new equipment has consumed all my build time and money.

Stan, running Maxton, beyond a doubt is the most fun you can have with your clothes on.

John Ritter 

[DahMurf]

Two more thoughts in regards to Jon & Stan.

When the ECTA was young there weren't many competitors. Few competitors also means little money. Allowing one to run a single vehicle in mulitple classes helped to provide the money needed to keep the place running. Sure you can raise fees and get your income many other ways but the bottom line is that the members voted & that's the way they want to keep it, "regardless of how they do it out west"!  

Stan, another reason people have opted to run multiple classes and run on open classes is to fill them up so that one day, sooner then later, the points race will be meaningful and based on actual increased speed achievement not on who can find the most open classes. Now I don't mean to pick on the people running the current points races, they're playing by the rules and that's how it should be. However, some of us look forward to the day when the points can actually reward real progress.

And Stan, I've set many records on open classes. Are you trying to tell me I shouldn't be proud of my achievement? Some of my records have been upped, but not by much. To me that means I didn't set a soft record. Somebody has to set the first record. Just because the class started as open doesn't mean it's set as soft. Just because some classes aren't widely popular doesn't mean they're not an achievement. Getting a ton of extra speed on a small cc turbo bike over the same small cc NA bike is not a common occurance. You don't get a lot of extra mph out of a small trubo. (heck, sometimes the weight of the turbo outweighs the hp gain & actually slows down the bike!  ) So, setting the turbo records with a non-turbo bike doesn't guarantee it's a soft record.

So Stan, if you don't like my records and you don't respect how I acheived them that's fine with me. You're welcome to join us or you can just keep playing with the SCTA but in all honesty, don't knock it until you try it. Bring something out to top my 50cc & 125cc records & show me just how slow I really am. 

Deb

[DahMurf]

There is nothing wrong with figuring your base class and only running in it. It's an honorable thing to do. It usually lasts as long as it can until the turbo bike shows up and sets records slower then your NA bike. Then you go WTF and start jumping classes to set the base as it should be and the bar where it needs to start. (Especially if the other team is cockey about it!  ) But it's all in how you like to play the game and what enables you to sleep at night.

To me it's all good as long as you're playing within the rules! When in Rome...


Deb

[Dean Los Angeles]

What you end up with is a record book full of cherry picked "records" that don't mean anything. Why not just have them pay the entry fee and mail them a record certificate? Don't hold races at all.

You are not far from doing that. The entire reason for running the correct class and nothing else is to have the records stand for something.

If there is a open blown 3000cc record and you run 87 mph on your 50cc Waxahatchi . . . You have records that stand for nothing.

[Stan Back]

Deb --

I don't remember addressing you by name.  I just talked about the whole practice.  And, no, I don't know how your points system (nor the SCTA system) works.  But from what you've stated, I guess it rewards the player that finds the most open records.  I've been told it worked that way for some in the SCTA, too -- but they've partially addressed the problem with minimums, I guess.

But I wouldn't get AS MUCH satisfaction out of setting a record with no competition as I would setting a record where there are half a dozen competitors year after year.  Your are certainly free to feel differently.

East is East and West is West -- and both games are played, and to some extent, ruled by the players.  I know the venues are different and have differing histories.  I even alluded to that.  And if I were to play in your game, I'd want to follow your rules (and probably put some front brakes on, too).

Stan Back

[willieworld]

just for the record there are 24 chassis classes and 15 engine classes in A (special construction) motorcycle for a total of 360 classes in the sidecar class there are 12 frame classes and 15 engine classes for a total of 180 classes  not 1000  ---at el mirage every class that doesnt have a record has a mininum  and most of the mininums are set pretty high --for example the 500 cc sidecar pushrod fuel mininum at el mirage is 107 mph the record in the same class at bonneville is 97 mph --i use this example because my wife sheri ran in this class last week at el mirage --if you set a record its a record and not easily done-- at one point in time there were no records at bonneville someone had to be first -------willie buchta

[Dean Los Angeles]

In the SCTA rule book there are 91 frame/engine classes and 15 displacement classes (ignoring steam/electric) for 1,365 total classes.

There are 482 records on the books at Bonneville. 53 of those are sidecar.

Plenty of open territory. This is why competitive minimums are necessary. If you start from 0.000 mph that 50cc Fraxahachi is looking like a good investment.

[DahMurf]

Minimums always seem like a great idea until it comes down to getting someone to actually sit down with every class and determine what they should be.  Sure we could borrow the minimums from other venues but we'd still have to review them for application at our venue. What happens when the minimums are higher then our existing records, then what do we do? Nobody wants to do it and nobody wants to take the beating for doing it so we have what we have.

Back to setting records in open classes with "no" competition, I like LSR because I compete with myself.  Every bike I've ever run at Maxton has been maxed out to the best of my ability. Even if nobody else rode the bike, I still know I'm maxed so why do I need someone else to validate what I've done? However, all the bikes I've run have been run by other people then myself and I've always ran at the top of its range. Not every bike I've run has been in contention for a record but that doesn't matter to me. Some have just been a stepping stone to the next level. But if you need competition & records to validate your runs then so be it.

Deb

[Dan Stokes]

The other problem with minimums is that it would put low-buck folks like me out of contention completely.  My E/CPRO record (we're talking cars here) was a good faith effort to go as fast as I possibly could, given my budget.  It's set at 97.7 (Jon Wennerberg driving) and that's the best I could get out of the car in that configuration.  It was NOT a half-hearted effort of some jerk trying to game the system - it was the best I could do with the funds available, and we were able to get a track record.  I think that's pretty cool.  I've found a bit more money and when I get the new head/cam/carb/header combo sorted out, I'll make an equally good faith effort to bump it higher.  I don't know the SCTA minimum for that class, but I'm pretty sure it would take way more money than I have, effectively putting me out of contention.  I could run T/O, which is OK, but it IS kind of fun to get a record or two as you run, and I don't find anything wrong with that.

Dan

[Cajun Kid]

Dan, once again I agree and go hard with your "E" motor...

If you need some  HP  in "E"  let me know,, I have found the solution,,,,

Charles

[2fast4u2c]

ECTA 2008 Rulebook
Page 8, Section 1, General Competition Requirements
1.B Classification
Sentence number 8; (which is actually the 3rd line on page 9)

With the ECTA only, vehicles may legally run in higher engine categories for their class.

It has been deemed by the ECTA that fuel is a higher engine category then gas and blown is a higher engine category then unblown.

Deb

Deb, it was my understanding that running up in engine class just meant you could run in a higher cc class but not bike class.  I can run in the 1650 / 2000 / 3000 & 3001+ but a MPS class bike can not run in the APS class unless it actually qualifies for that class.

If it's a blown class, you must have a blower of some type.  Someone screwed up or the President authorized it at the meet.

Guy

[Dan Stokes]

Charles -
I don't think you know my car.  It's WAY low buck, and runs an inline six (250) not that fancy V-shaped thing that you have! 1978 Camaro with a copy of Keith's aero package.  I scored a PES head (thanks, Terry) over last winter and am trying to get it all sorted out.  Should be there in September w/car - I hope!  At some point, you may want to stab your motor in my car and see what aero can do for your little SBC.  We may need to find a 'chute!

Later
Dan

[Cajun Kid]

Dan,,, I think you are correct... My lil "V" experiment may do wonders better in your car as the areo of my "brick" can not compete with your body style.  But man I like the retro look of my Hotrods and the Vicky fits well in my stable....  I am thinking of using my motor in a 2nd. gen Camaro or Firebird for better speed and handling,, hmm Bonneville?  Yeah I hope so for 09 in a slicker body.. The Vicky was just my "fun Entry" into LSR.... you guys have me hooked now... Oh if the June heat and 2.5 hours in line did not run me off, then lookout,, I'll be back !!!!

See ya in Sept.

Charles

[fredvance]

2.5 hrs in line, thats hot lapping at Speedweek!!