Author Topic: Getting air to Turbo  (Read 13984 times)

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Offline panic

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Re: Getting air to Turbo
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2008, 01:24:23 PM »
I agree, scoop size works backwards from mph. The scoop should transition to a plenum with enough X-section to reduce air speed to 180 f/s (123 mph) or less before the turbo compressor intake.
Example: for 200 mph, 1,000cc motor 9,000 rpm at 20 psi boost @ Bonneville (2.6:1 pressure ratio? based on 12.59 psi local pressure); effective intake volume 2,600cc, 90% VE calls for a scoop of 3.03" (1.96" round opening). Air is entering at the scoop at 200 mph, the plenum X-section should be 3.03 × 200/123 or 4.92 square inches (2.5" round).
However, I think that for this calc to work the leading edges of the scoop must be very aero (1/2" radius, 270° roll-over?), the entry slightly tapered, some allowance for Poiseville etc. so the practical figure will always be larger than the prediction.
What difference? Ideal conditions: reduced pumping loss, reduced compressor discharge temp, increased max boost without changing A/R (or quicker rise to max if regulated). If scoop is too small pumping loss goes up, max boost goes down.
How to make it function at more speeds?
1. Hobbs N/O switch in the plenum to detect high vacuum and close a secondary flap by solenoid. The flap need not be very "clean" because it's not needed at speed, could be a simple "chin" below the best opening, etc.
Alt. control: flap closes on 3-4 or 4-5 upshift with switch on shift drum.
2. for a bike only: a big reed cage(s) in the floor of the plenum will automatically pull air under high vacuum
3. most complex: a dual conical plug (front cone: aero; rear cone: contoured to scoop taper) obstructs the entrance of a maximum size scoop, position retreats back into the scoop at high speed like a trumpet mute - this is what the SR71 etc. uses.

Offline joea

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Re: Getting air to Turbo
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2008, 01:43:42 PM »
uuhhh,  Sum......


Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Getting air to Turbo
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2008, 02:13:37 PM »
Quote
My only concern with that is if you could get 1 to 1 1/2 lbs of free boost with a properly designed scoop then that would be 1 to 1 1/2 lbs less boost that the turbo would have to supply

Sum, sadly it doesn't work that way. I can't find the darn reference, but this was from a previous post (the link to the reference was broken)

Quote
As you can see maximum theoretical ram pressure (incompressible flow) at 200 mph is 102.326 lbs/ft^2 or about 0.71 psi.

You would like to think that if you put up a scoop the size of a billboard you would get huge pressure. At the speed we run the air is relatively incompressible and partial pressure is the best case.

You could have a hole or airflow that restricts flow. On a turbo that may or may not affect horsepower. If you can still achieve maximum boost that the engine will take with a reduced inlet, then no problem.

On the other end is too much air. Then drag becomes a factor.

In between the two is what you are looking for. The scoop size can be incredibly small if it is sized for speed. The engine will be to some extent starved at lower speeds. If you calculate the size for various speeds you will see that what you really need is a stretchy inlet! Panic is correct that a bleed inlet is helpful to avoid restricting the inlet at low speed.

Jon, I would look to get the inlet out the front to get the cleanest air that you can. If you can't, then a pressure sensor at the inlet will help tell you determine what the pressure looks like during the entire run. On the dyno you would see constant negative pressure because there isn't any mechanism to push air towards the inlet. It might be possible you can pull in enough air without going out into the air stream. Omega Engineering PX26-001GV Sells a $35 0-1 psi pressure sensor.

At speed you have the advantage of using the high pressure areas to push the air into the turbo. Not only aids the turbo, but the aero too by reducing the pressure in that area.

The shape of the scoop on a car is almost always an opening above the body to get into the clean air away from the turbulence. It doesn't have to be. Some of the cars have intakes out the front.

A properly designed NACA duct is designed to pull air from the body with the least amount of drag. Location is all important. I believe a scoop will give better performance.

Sum mentioned pulling air from the front "if I could figure out how to smoothly duct the air from there down to the turbo inlet in a progressively larger duct." The need to go progressively larger isn't as important as calculating conductance losses through the path. There are formulas for calculating flow through pipes that work here. Drag on the body and inside a pipe are the same. You can go progressively larger but I doubt it would gain much. Just make sure there aren't restrictions in the path. Dumping into a huge plenum is as effective as trying to calculate a resistance free path.

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Offline Sumner

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Re: Getting air to Turbo
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2008, 02:48:07 PM »
uuhhh,  Sum......



Ok, so I'll bite.  Are you now taking air in there or is that a photoshop pre-production photo??

If it is real then what is your take on the old way vs. the new way??

Thanks,

Sum
« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 02:59:00 PM by Sumner »

Offline Sumner

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Re: Getting air to Turbo
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2008, 02:49:48 PM »
............Air is entering at the scoop at 200 mph, the plenum X-section should be 3.03 × 200/123 or 4.92 square inches (2.5" round).
However, I think that for this calc to work the leading edges of the scoop must be very aero (1/2" radius, 270° roll-over?),...........

I'd like to maybe work that option into my spreadsheet.  Would you help me with that??

Sum

Offline Sumner

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Re: Getting air to Turbo
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2008, 02:58:12 PM »
Quote
My only concern with that is if you could get 1 to 1 1/2 lbs of free boost with a properly designed scoop then that would be 1 to 1 1/2 lbs less boost that the turbo would have to supply

Sum, sadly it doesn't work that way. I can't find the darn reference, but this was from a previous post (the link to the reference was broken)

.......................At speed you have the advantage of using the high pressure areas to push the air into the turbo. Not only aids the turbo, but the aero too by reducing the pressure in that area.

..................

I've always tried to figure that problem out if the boosted air did mean the blower then didn't have to work as hard to achieve the desired boost.  Sounds like it doesn't, but then your other sentence there leaves me confused.  I guess what I'm really interested in is the air "temp" after the blower in the instance of a little boost before the blower vs. none.

..............what you really need is a stretchy inlet! Panic is correct that a bleed inlet is helpful to avoid restricting the inlet at low speed..............

Some people are running plenums with trap doors to provide the additional air at the lower speeds now that you and panic have shown the need for in some instances.  We aren't one of them.

Good info here, keep it coming,

Sum

Offline John Nimphius

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Re: Getting air to Turbo
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2008, 03:20:03 PM »
Don't the quantities of air required for a specific size NA engine at the same RPM and ground speed have to be adjusted when under boost?  Like twice as much for 15 PSI and three times for 30?

landracing

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Re: Getting air to Turbo
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2008, 03:24:47 PM »
John,

Yes this should be added to the formula. I have posted the formula I had and when I get home I will adjust it for a boosted application or add a cell for a boosted application. It will factor in pressure ratio of turbo for the needed size, and it will be figured for bonneville altitude at 12.5 and not sea level.

Here is the NA I had posted earlier and I will make a new one tonight.
http://www.landracing.com/formula/hoodscoop.htm

jon

Offline joea

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Re: Getting air to Turbo
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2008, 03:48:37 PM »
sum i dont know how to use photoshop...

that pic is from last year....

the pic went faster than before at less boost....

but other subtle changes were made...

fighting handling kept us from getting more
postive data.....

I used mayf's calcs and make a swag.....

Joe :)

landracing

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Re: Getting air to Turbo
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2008, 04:04:53 PM »
Tell the truth Joe, bike handled great, up until you hit the 4 mile marker at 240+.....

Jon

Offline joea

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Re: Getting air to Turbo
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2008, 04:28:43 PM »
actually the bike handled evily....all I could
do to stay on to 246.......after it went through
the mile marker it handled worse.....


Offline Sumner

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Re: Getting air to Turbo
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2008, 04:39:35 PM »
Tell the truth Joe, bike handled great, up until you hit the 4 mile marker at 240+.....

Jon


I wish there was a picture of that and hope Joe doesn't repeat...


........ well Joe I guess I was on the right track with my suggestion.  Seems like every time you think you thought of something it has been done numerous times before  :cry:,

Sum

Offline Sumner

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Re: Getting air to Turbo
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2008, 04:43:56 PM »
Don't the quantities of air required for a specific size NA engine at the same RPM and ground speed have to be adjusted when under boost?  Like twice as much for 15 PSI and three times for 30?

Yes and also the volumetric efficiency comes into play.  The boost is part is included in my spreadsheet.  The efficiency isn't, but you could compensate with the boost entry to some degree even by using a negative number for a NA motor.  Sounds like Jon will have that aspect covered also,

Sum

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Getting air to Turbo
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2008, 12:17:44 AM »
Interesting thoughts on air inlets, so I just have to get my two cents in also. If you had the optimum situation with lots of room to do the ducting I think that the inlet would start with an area somewhere between 10-15% larger than the number you would get using the engine air flow requirements at max rpm, the reason for the extra area is boundry layer which acts to reduce the inlet area, also the inlet needs to have a very generous radius going into the inlet duct, then you would expand the duct at a included angle of 11-14 degrees, this keeps the air attached to the duct interior surface and if you get it slowed down enough the flow can be come laminar which almost completely eliminates any pressure drop due to friction between the air and the duct inter surface. So you would probably want to look at the air velocity, which would dictate the duct diameter, at which the Renyolds number drops to a value that should provide laminar flow. Now you need to turn the air flow so that it will enter the engine inlet which means that you will need internal turning vanes to guide the air into the engine with out causing turbulence and the inlets need to be in a plenum that is pretty larger so that you recover the energy from velocity into pressure. This I would think also be true for turbo engins.  Making one that is really efficient is a lot of work, the F1 guys spend lots of hours in the wind tunnel and with CFD calculations to optimize their inlets and they still believe that there is an additional 5-10% increase if they get it optimized better. Not many of us have their resources but our challenge is somewhat less complicated than theirs. That being said I have seen some inlet pressure numbers listed by forum members that have ran transducers in their inlets that certainly show some people are on the right track. Now is all of this worth the effort with a turboed engine? If you gain 1 psi on the inlet of the turbo and it puts out 15 psi of boost so it is only having to use the energy in the exhaust gases (which is esentually waste energy anyway)  to generate 14 lbs and the other 1-1.5 psi is provided by some larger, expensive, cumbersome inlet tract of questionable design, Jon, I say screw it! stick the turbo inlet into the air stream and adjust the waste gate to the boost you want and hold on! On a NA motor it would certainly be something to work on but not with a turbo motor.

Rex

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Offline Stainless1

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Re: Getting air to Turbo
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2008, 12:52:54 AM »
Jon, we feed our turbo with the same NACA duct that we use normally aspirated.  I think your bike should have clean air ducted in.  Pulling air in from 90 degrees does not seem to cause a lot of issues with many turbo bikes, but salt ingestion will.  I am with the group that thinks air pushing in makes the turbo's work easier, increasing efficiency.  Just my racers guess, no science to back it up, but like most of us, willing to try anything that seems like it should work. 
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