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Author Topic: Attaching your spindles......Need help.  (Read 17678 times)

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Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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Attaching your spindles......Need help.
« on: February 16, 2008, 03:41:20 PM »
I just got a set of Anglia spindles made by Strange. The only way I can see that they can be mounted is by welding the center "load pivot pin" to a structure. Is this the way it’s done or is there another method.
If the load pin is welded do you have to remove it from the housing (bearing seals???).

Also what is a common structure to affix it too....for instance do you fish mouth a 1.5" solid bar or pipe or do you mate a bar and then put in some reinforcement plates?????


Also it looks like there is 15 degrees camber in the spindles....should they be mounted so there is no camber (will make linkages more difficult)....or should I leave the camber there?


Thanks
-JH
jonny_hotnuts@hotmail.com

"Sometimes it is impossible to deal with her, but most of the time she is very sweet, and if you caress her properly she will sing beautifully."
*Andres Segovia
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Offline GeneF

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Re: Attaching your spindles......Need help.
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2008, 05:51:23 PM »
Your terminology has me confused, but I'm assumimg you are asking how to build a tube axle. I've built several for oval track and they are relitively simple to make. Here's a couple of pics that may help.
 I believe your 15 deg. camber is what is really the K.P.I. (King Pin Inclination) and 15 deg. sounds kinda steep. Most prod. and after market spindles run in the 7-10 deg. range but I don't know about Anglias, and yes, the axle boss angle needs to match the spindle kpi.

Offline Sumner

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Re: Attaching your spindles......Need help.
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2008, 08:53:28 PM »
What Gene said and somemore to think about.  So are you planning a straight axle for the car now??  Don't forget how all of this is going to effect your scrub radius (might want to read Sparky's post on that). I talk about in on my site here:

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/construction%20page-21.html

That page is also the start of where I made my front axle and so is the nest page and then it continues starting here:

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar-2/construction%20page-50.html

     

Here are mine and this is where I'm making the bosses for the kingpin to go through.


     

More.................. and...............




............. more.

I looked on Strange's site and couldn't find your spindles.  Can  you post a picture or link.  Don't forget what happens to one side of a straight axle can transfer to the other.  Not a real big deal at b'ville, but one reason I went with twin axles in the front.

c ya,

Sum

Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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Re: Attaching your spindles......Need help.
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2008, 04:49:02 PM »
Sorry it took so long to reply.

Here is a pic of the Anglia spindles:


As you can see from the pic if they are installed with the "king pin" at 90 degrees the spindle will give the tire a fairly steep negative camber (unless I unstalled them upside down and then have a positive camber!).....


So what is the deal.....do you mount the king pins so the spindle is at 90 degrees.....I would think that would be very detrimental to handling.


Thanks for any replys!


jonny_hotnuts@hotmail.com

"Sometimes it is impossible to deal with her, but most of the time she is very sweet, and if you caress her properly she will sing beautifully."
*Andres Segovia
(when Im not working on the car, I am ususally playing classical guitar)

Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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Re: Attaching your spindles......Need help.
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2008, 04:57:08 PM »
------------AND------------

Are you supposed to weld the king pin to the axle tube?
jonny_hotnuts@hotmail.com

"Sometimes it is impossible to deal with her, but most of the time she is very sweet, and if you caress her properly she will sing beautifully."
*Andres Segovia
(when Im not working on the car, I am ususally playing classical guitar)

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Attaching your spindles......Need help.
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2008, 05:59:59 PM »
Who says you can't have negative camber?

The 1960 Milliken MX1 Camber Car showing a large negative camber.

In your picture it's upside down. The kingpin centerline should contact the center line of the contact patch. Ignoring other suspension criteria, it doesn't have to have any camber. The 15 degree angle in the kingpin isn't camber, just a method to get the kingpin centerline to align with the contact patch. If you want the best straight line speed then zero camber is the answer.

If you had a large offset wheel you could put a 90 degree kingpin centerline vertical to the centerline of the contact patch. It's easier to make the wheel, bearing, and brake fit if you push the kingpin off center and angle it towards the tire contact patch.

The kingpin tube gets welded to the frame.
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Offline Chicane

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Re: Attaching your spindles......Need help.
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2008, 07:23:23 PM »
The 15 degree angle in the kingpin isn't camber, just a method to get the kingpin centerline to align with the contact patch. If you want the best straight line speed then zero camber is the answer.

On further note/explaination... KPI effects scrub. Anytime the steering wheel is turned (even in small amounts for directional correction), the tire scrubs against the contact surface. The more the steering is turned, the greater the scrub becomes. More scrub means more friction and less speed. Turning the steering wheel is like applying the brakes. It slows the chassis and builds heat into the tires. As displayed in Deans pictorial, the scrub radius is the distance between where the SAI intersects the ground and the center of the tire. This distance must be exactly the same from side to side or the vehicle may pull strongly at all speeds. While included angle problems will affect the scrub radius, it is not the only thing that will affect it. Different wheels or tires from side to side will cause differences in scrub radius as well as a tire that is low on air.

Hey JH... whats up with the old school PQ20 in the background ?? Classic piece of equipment...

Offline sheribuchta

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Re: Attaching your spindles......Need help.
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2008, 08:07:48 PM »
jh  i dont think they are going to give you an answer --im not sure i am either as im not sure if you are serious or jokeing --if you are serious let me know and i will post a pic  willie buchta

Offline Sumner

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Re: Attaching your spindles......Need help.
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2008, 08:13:13 PM »
jh  i dont think they are going to give you an answer --im not sure i am either as im not sure if you are serious or jokeing --if you are serious let me know and i will post a pic  willie buchta

Yep, we all did give an answer and it is consistently the same and correct,

Sum

Offline interested bystander

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Re: Attaching your spindles......Need help.
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2008, 09:08:29 PM »
thot i'd posted this, but i'll try again - you have the spindle upside down in the picture, right?

 the anglia has an approx 8 degree inclination toward the top inward when looking at it from front or rear with the axle parallel to the ground..

You also need caster- kingpin angled back towards rear of car in side view - and a bit of toe in -wheels pointed towards each other going forward looking down on front end.

i believe that's a stilleto spindle built by woodhaven industries and sold by strange and others- good parts!
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Offline SPARKY

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Re: Attaching your spindles......Need help.
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2008, 09:21:25 PM »
JH  are the steering arms alum. or steel---if alum---make you some new ones of steel---
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Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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Re: Attaching your spindles......Need help.
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2008, 10:54:46 PM »
Quote
Hey JH... whats up with the old school PQ20 in the background ?? Classic piece of equipment...

High end audio is a second passion of mine. I have 2 PQ20 amps, one I installed last week in my work truck......on a set of Dynaudio separates!!!! (Dynas are not what you would expect in a work truck). I am currently wondering what I should do with the other PQ20.......The MC300 and the Nelson Pass designed series I D100 are also works of audio art.

Quote
JH  are the steering arms alum. or steel---if alum---make you some new ones of steel---

They are steel.

Quote
jh  i dont think they are going to give you an answer --im not sure i am either as im not sure if you are serious or jokeing --if you are serious let me know and i will post a pic  willie buchta

All things considered…..due to the fact that I had SERIOUS handling issues last season the last thing I would joke about is how to properly set up steering components. I am changing the front end of the car from stock Fiat suspension-steering to a 100% fabricated front end. I did not really understand what the angle was until Dean LA posted the pic……I get it now….sometimes a pic is worth all the explanation you need.



Here is another question……….

For whatever reason I did not want to post the tire-wheel combo I am going to use until I start a “front end rebuild” section in the Build Diaries section, but because it is now a problem the tires are 14" and not the common 22". The problem is that the tires outside diameter is smaller than the “expected” and commonly used 22” front drag tire. This means that the smaller dimeater of the tire will mean the contact patch will not be inline with the center of the king pin angle. Because of the smaller diameter tire the king pin line will be to the inside of the contact patch.

What do I need to do?????

Thanks for all your comments.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2008, 10:58:39 PM by Jonny Hotnuts »
jonny_hotnuts@hotmail.com

"Sometimes it is impossible to deal with her, but most of the time she is very sweet, and if you caress her properly she will sing beautifully."
*Andres Segovia
(when Im not working on the car, I am ususally playing classical guitar)

Offline Chicane

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Re: Attaching your spindles......Need help.
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2008, 11:13:16 PM »
...I am currently wondering what I should do with the other PQ20.......

 :-D Sell it to me... as I have nothing to drive the last set of new in the box 325i's that I have left.

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Attaching your spindles......Need help.
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2008, 11:38:49 PM »
Jonny:

Build the front end so you have no or very little negative camber. Set it up so that the caster is fully adjustable. The recomendations for that setting will likely be all over the place depending on who makes the recommendation and what their background is. I would guess that the figures will range anywhere from 7 degrees to 15.
As interested bystander suggested the photo shows the spindle upside down. If you can find wheels with the correct offset to give you zero scrub radius that will be a bonus, otherwise go for the minimum you can get and it should not cause any problems.

Pete

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Attaching your spindles......Need help.
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2008, 01:46:37 AM »
If you had a 22 inch diameter tire that is 5 inches wide, then the kingpin offset works out to 2.95" from the center of the tire to the center of the kingpin. This allows the tire to pivot around that point.

If you have a 14 inch diameter tire that is 5 inches wide, then with the same wheel offset you would be inside the center of the contact patch and instead of pivoting around the same point, the tire will swing in an arc. This changes the relationship between the fixed rear wheels and the swinging front wheels, and not in a good way.

You need 1.88 inches to bring the 14" tires to the correct contact patch.



What you need to determine is where exactly your tires and wheels will land. The offset of the wheel is the determining factor. The 14" wheel may have a very different offset. You could be right where you need to be, or way worse.

The two possibilities for adjusting are to have either the kingpin made at a different angle to match the tire diameter and wheel offset, or change the wheel offset to match the kingpin. The offset can be changed with a spacer if you are outside the contact point. If you are inside then the wheel has to be modified or find a wheel with a different offset.
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.