Author Topic: Center Hub Steering  (Read 7552 times)

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Offline thundair

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Center Hub Steering
« on: January 21, 2008, 06:07:34 PM »
Do you need a bell crank to rotate the axle to keep the alignment with the swing arm?
I will have less than 2" travel and would like to clamp the axle at the swing arm.
If it is required what is the percentage of unequal lengths to maintain the steering angle
(I guess I could lay that out myself)

Cheers

Offline 1212FBGS

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Re: Center Hub Steering
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2008, 07:08:41 PM »
in a center hub steering...the axle does not move.!.....
kent

Offline crusher

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Re: Center Hub Steering
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2008, 09:14:20 PM »
 IT SHOULDN T MOVE??// i DONT KNOW IF THIS WILL HELP.BUT THIS IS WHAT WE ARE DOING.

Offline 1212FBGS

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Re: Center Hub Steering
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2008, 03:49:47 AM »
nope ...the axle wont turn...
kent

Offline thundair

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Re: Center Hub Steering
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2008, 04:30:58 PM »
Kent
I was speaking of the rotation along its own axis as in bump steer. I realize the  axle wont steer as it is perpendicular to the streamliner length. I saw the Tony Foale and others and there is an uneven parallel to the swing-arm to keep the steering head angle as the swing arm moves up and down..See .Tesi.jpg on //www.tonyfoale.com

My question is how important is it to maintain the steering angle in 2" or less of travel.......

Thanks to everyone for replying

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Offline ack

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Re: Center Hub Steering
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2008, 05:53:35 PM »
Kent
I was speaking of the rotation along its own axis as in bump steer. I realize the  axle wont steer as it is perpendicular to the streamliner length. I saw the Tony Foale and others and there is an uneven parallel to the swing-arm to keep the steering head angle as the swing arm moves up and down..See .Tesi.jpg on //www.tonyfoale.com

My question is how important is it to maintain the steering angle in 2" or less of travel.......

Thanks to everyone for replying

Cheers


Not very important.

Watch the bump steer though. Keep the center line between the suspension arm pivot and the axle parallel to the steering rod and you should be fine. The longer the steering rod and suspension arm lengths the better.

Offline 1212FBGS

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Re: Center Hub Steering
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2008, 01:35:50 AM »
thundair
You can check king pin inclination as the axle moves through its motion... in 2" of movement it could vary 10deg. The longer the arm the less change… you can minimize king pin angle movement by setting your desired angle at suspension sag or running heigth. I see what you contemplating as I am trying to decide the same for my new liner... my last design I used a drag link and floating axle to keep all angles fixed... I’m even thinking ridged front end for this liner.... but I’ve done dumber things... you still in San Diego?
Kent

Offline interested bystander

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Re: Center Hub Steering
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2008, 10:51:23 PM »
I THINK (with front suspension) a parallelogram linkage will keep caster angle (is that rake or trail or a combination?) the same in relation to the GROUND but the wheelbase will shorten slightly if there is lift or depression of the frame- subject to rear suspension deflections.

One must keep the steering linkage in phase with the above or bump steer will rear its' ugly head!

Haven't fooled with this since '72 or so.
5 mph in pit area (clothed)

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Center Hub Steering
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2008, 11:40:29 AM »
Quote
I THINK (with front suspension) a parallelogram linkage will keep caster angle (is that rake or trail or a combination?) the same in relation to the GROUND but the wheelbase will shorten slightly if there is lift or depression of the frame- subject to rear suspension deflections.

Caster and rake are the same thing. Trail is where the centerline of the steering pivot contacts the ground. On a front fork you can adjust trail with the fork tube offset. Or bend the forks like they do on a bicycle.  8-) It gets a little more complicated with a center hub. If the pivot (king pin) is inside the wheel there are not many options. If the pivot is outside the wheel you have more options for trail.

The wheel base may shorten with the parallelogram, but that's what front forks do all the time. The more you upset the relationship between the front and rear wheels the more problems you are going to have. That's what a CAD system is for, so you can work out all those issues before committing metal.

Bump steer is easy to predict. Pull the shocks and move the system through the full travel and measure the steering angle. Bump steer in case you missed it, is when the suspension pivot and the steering tie rod are in different planes and when the suspension moves up AND down it turns the wheel when you really wish it wouldn't.

When you say less than 2" of travel you have to equate that to a speed. At 20 mph nobody cares. At 200 mph it matters. And where are you measuring 2"?
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline thundair

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Re: Center Hub Steering
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2008, 04:45:58 PM »
Dean
I guess my concern is that by not maintaining the steering angle through the travel (at the axle) that I would some how affect steering.
But when I think of it as a collapsed fork where the steering angle changes, I am satisfied that it is not an issue for my application.
As far as bump steering from a misaligned steering linkage I will just bell crank from the swing-arm pivot, should be good to go.........

Kent .. I am still in San Diego and probably catch you at the roadster club meet..

bak189

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Re: Center Hub Steering
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2008, 06:47:36 PM »
In my time I have build many Center Hub steering sidecars for roadracing......but for straight line racing......(LSR)......why?
Denis Manning also has used Center Hub steering on his previous liners....but his present Lucky 7 liner does not use hub-center......much easier to build with forks and get it sorted out...
Just my thoughts on the subject............................

Offline bones

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Re: Center Hub Steering
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2008, 06:31:10 AM »
Shouldn't hubcenter use an arm parallel to the swingarm mounted above or below the swingarm pivot to keep the caster constant.I think the wheel base change would be less important than the caster change
The streamliner I am building was started with hubcenter so I will keep it.Another way which is simpler to build is to use forward facing control arms ( E-Z-HOOK) similar to LCR sidecars. Hubcenter or control arms will give a lower frontal area
       cheers     Bones

Offline Kansas Bad Man

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Re: Center Hub Steering
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2008, 05:16:52 PM »
The Vincent streamliner eliminated bump steering in this manner: (this wasn't my idea, it was an idea of Don Vesco's.)  Don utilized the system on his liners and actually gave a system to Bob George (builder of the Easy Rider)  It's simple. 

Mount your pivot arm solid to the forward bulkhead in a double bearing cage.  Hang a U joint on the pivot arm shaft, then make solid to the end of the U joint a female spline, then a male spline.  Try to make the spline fit well.  Then affix a U joint to the male spline.  Affix solid another bearing cage to the front swing arm, the same cage bearing set up.  This is your bottom pivot arm, then the drag link from your bottom pivot arm to the center hub steering.  Grab the handlebars and you can bounce it all you want.  You have eliminated the hard connection between the two things that cause bump steering, the handlebars, solidly mounted in a pivot bearing set up, and the center hub, which is solidly mounted in a pivot bearing king pin set up.  Now what you have is the swing arm going up and down, but the floating splines eliminate the physics involved with fixed points. 

                                        Max

Offline Kansas Bad Man

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Re: Center Hub Steering
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2008, 06:08:09 PM »
One thing I forgot.  The system that I use to eliminate bump steering has lots of moving parts, needle bearings in the U joints, the splines, and of course the four ball bearings required.  The system is really susceptable to that nasty salt.  I've had to replace the U joints on one occasion, due to the salt spray off the front tire.  My front tire has a water cooling spray system, which even makes it worse.  The bottom line is, if you decide to go with the design, ensure that you have a real good fender of some kind.  It'll help keep the salt off all those moving parts.

                                      Max