Author Topic: Hybrid Cars, Yes or No  (Read 10729 times)

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landracing

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Hybrid Cars, Yes or No
« on: January 11, 2008, 01:29:40 AM »
This is a non LSR posting. But I am seeing more and more Hybrids on market and getting into servicing them more. I am curious on who has one, who is thinking about getting one. And do you want any REAL WORLD questions answered about them or servicing them. I am here to answer the questions.

I am not an expert, but I do service them. Are they good enough and efficient enough to own one. Service nightmare, expensive to repair, things you can and can't do...

I am curious to hear any comments, or offer any industry advice on them, or answer any questions about them, which ones are really a waste of time, which ones are really worth it, is the expense worth the benefit...

Jon
« Last Edit: January 11, 2008, 01:31:25 AM by landracing »

Offline Tom Shannon

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Re: Hybrid Cars, Yes or No
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2008, 11:06:12 AM »
Jon;

Great topic. Driving bus around Salt Town I spot alot of Toyota Prius'.
 What are your thoughts on an Alternative Fuel only salt meet? I'm friends of fellow USFRA members,Kent & Brent Singleton, of Ogden,UT.You remember them  :-)at WF's 2007 and the Skool Bus that ran the long course during our wind delay. They also had the electric Jr. dragster on the 130 club course. Do you see a time when we could hold an alternative fuel only salt meet? Thanks again Jon
Tom Shannon
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dwarner

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Re: Hybrid Cars, Yes or No
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2008, 02:26:23 PM »
Call Mike Cook, bring your wallet.
Call USFRA, put on a meet in conjunction with WoS. This has been suggested many times before I don't know why they are not moving on it.

DW

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Hybrid Cars, Yes or No
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2008, 05:39:18 PM »
There are always two questions these days, both green.

1. Is it green for the environment?
2. How much green does it cost?

Cost in the case of a hybrid is the payback ratio versus the non-hybrid version. Not only the direct cost, but the fuel cost, the extra service cost, and how does it really stack up once you pull out the taxpayer incentives.

Since the hybrids don't sell enough to get over the price/performance curve, how much are the OEM's subsidizing them?

If the payback is more than two years, and you roll you car over every two years, how do you justify it? I read somewhere that the SUV hybrid payback was 10 years!

As far as racing them . . . Please. Can we stick with the conventional? If you set a hybrid or hydrogen or bio-diesel record, have you really set a record or are you just blowing your own horn? If there is nobody to challenge the record is it really a record?

Can you really be the first lesbian-Nazi-pro wrestler in a bio-diesel Haxafratchy 500 to go 100 mph backwards?

Dang, I knew I left my politically correct hat at home!
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline jackson

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Re: Hybrid Cars, Yes or No
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2008, 09:13:14 PM »
Rick Burns ran pretty good in the Fusion last year.  That would have to be weird going that fast listening to what had to sound like a combination of a tornado and a washing machine.

Offline mtkawboy

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Re: Hybrid Cars, Yes or No
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2008, 03:17:36 PM »
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/SaveonaCar/HighTechCarRepairs.aspx       the first part of this article will give you something to think about before buying a Prius

Offline Jarlo

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Re: Hybrid Cars, Yes or No
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2008, 12:10:10 AM »
At this point, you can't run fast enough to GIVE me a Prius!
1): I'm 6'5".
2): I like a little more iron around me.
3): It's wonderful aerodynamic lines make it look like a squash that    was left in the sun too long.
4): It's not really that green; when you analyze the so called 'Carbon Footprint' that goes into manufacture; batteries made one place and other parts somewhere else, then shipped half-way around the world so some deluded person can "feel good", it's a real joke.

5): Autoweek did a test across Michigan last summer, with several cars; and The VW Jetta TDI smoked ALL for MPG.
Even figuring the high price of Diesel, they thought it was a "Best Buy" if MPG is all that you wanted.
I'll try and dig it out, or maybe some other reader has a better filing system and can come up with the article.
Regards,
Jim

Offline will6er

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Re: Hybrid Cars, Yes or No
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2008, 10:58:43 PM »
I've had a Honda Insight for over 7 years.(brought it to Speed Week a number of times)
I have averaged over 60 mpg for over 135,000 miles.
No repairs outside of warranty. Oops - Now I did it!
It's been a lot of fun and people still ask me about it.
I imagine Honda subsidized it to get the technology out, but I'll take advantage of it.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2008, 11:03:02 PM by will6er »

John Romero

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Re: Hybrid Cars, Yes or No
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2008, 01:01:34 AM »
I have a 06 Civic Hybrid and love it. I drive about 110 miles a day and about 20 of those miles are in heavy traffic where I can use a carpool lane. Thats why I bought it! The extra fuel savings was offset by the higher price of the vehicle. I did get a $2300 tax credit which was nice but the tipping point was still the carpool lane ability when I am alone. Nothing like zipping at 65mph past stop and go traffic!

Offline Bob Drury

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Re: Hybrid Cars, Yes or No
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2008, 02:59:58 PM »
John, its great to see you post again.  Stick around..........Bob
Bob Drury

landracing

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Re: Hybrid Cars, Yes or No
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2008, 06:53:39 PM »
I have a 06 Civic Hybrid and love it. I drive about 110 miles a day and about 20 of those miles are in heavy traffic where I can use a carpool lane. Thats why I bought it! The extra fuel savings was offset by the higher price of the vehicle. I did get a $2300 tax credit which was nice but the tipping point was still the carpool lane ability when I am alone. Nothing like zipping at 65mph past stop and go traffic!

Just curious John, do you do your own maint on the vehicle? Or do you have it done at a shop?

I have been working on more and more of these, I particularly dont like working on them however someone has to do it.

Have you had to do any major work to it. that is what I am interested in.

Jon

racin jason

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Re: Hybrid Cars, Yes or No
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2008, 07:16:00 PM »
Jon,

what is involved and the related costs when servicing these hybrids?
I figured most of the work would be covered under warranty.

I am trying to set up an alternative fueled diesel highway hauler but i can't run in a class. I think the scta may need to look at adding hybrids, fuel cells and alternative fueled classes.

John Romero

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Re: Hybrid Cars, Yes or No
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2008, 09:32:29 PM »
I have a 06 Civic Hybrid and love it. I drive about 110 miles a day and about 20 of those miles are in heavy traffic where I can use a carpool lane. Thats why I bought it! The extra fuel savings was offset by the higher price of the vehicle. I did get a $2300 tax credit which was nice but the tipping point was still the carpool lane ability when I am alone. Nothing like zipping at 65mph past stop and go traffic!

Just curious John, do you do your own maint on the vehicle? Or do you have it done at a shop?

I have been working on more and more of these, I particularly dont like working on them however someone has to do it.

Have you had to do any major work to it. that is what I am interested in.

Jon


I have 57K miles on it and have done absolutely nothing to it except get the oil changed. So I guess nobody does the work on it  :-P

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Hybrid Cars, Yes or No
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2008, 11:39:35 PM »
Yes or No?  My jury's still out.

I drove and really liked the Insight, but for a day-to-day car, it just didn't have enough room.  I considered the Toyota a few years back, but I didn't care for the regenerative braking - the car felt like the parking brake was hung up.   

I think the basic premise of a hybrid is sound, but I want to see a few more years of real-world experience before I'd commit to one.

My concern with electrics and hybrids is the large amount of current needed to make them work.  I don't know what voltages the Hondas or Toyotas run at, but that much current in a car, if voltages are sufficiently high, could be dangerous in an accident, or if the feed were to become compromised by corrosion or neglect.


I imagine Honda subsidized it to get the technology out, but I'll take advantage of it.

Honda's history, at least in the US market, would back up that thought - they tend to not jump in with both feet.  Here are a few examples -

The N600 was a precursor - it didn't sell well, but it opened the market for the Civic.
 
The CVCC engine was an option on the Civic, a rather novel design at the time.  Rather than going the whole hog with the new powerplant, Honda offered it as an option, which proved to be a smart move, as the new engine had some teething problems.  But Honda handled those problems correctly with their customers, and the CVCC became a building block for a lot of Honda's other automotive engine development. 

The Accord didn't come along until the Civic was well established and a solid network of dealers was in place to support a car with a larger general appeal. 

Acura didn't launch until Honda was a well-established brand name in automobiles in the US. 

And the Insight, a niche market 2 seater, put the idea of a hybrid car on the road without having to commit to a four seater that surely would have sold in greater numbers. 

I guess my observation is that Honda tends to market their new technology and products in such a way that if it doesn't work, (four wheel steering comes to mind) they're not stuck with too much outlay or a reputation-killer. 
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline JimL

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Re: Hybrid Cars, Yes or No
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2008, 03:50:15 AM »
It's been awhile now (12 years on the market, 8 in the U.S.), and there are some surprises that go with the Prius (and should hold true for Camry Hybrid, Highlander, and most of the others).  First, the reliability has really been good, despite a lot of software development and the attendant reprogramming; certainly to be expected when running down a new path.  Great warranty, anyway, so the customer cost is very low.

The folks who are really getting the benefit are the ones who normally run their cars 5 years or more, and put over 200,000-300,000 on them.  There are a lot of commuter Prius that are beyond those numbers.  So how do they compare to a $20K commuter sedan?  Here's the real world, NOT EVEN accounting for better gas mileage in traffic.  We're going to call your comparable car "Standard":

1.  Standard with modern non-asbestos brakes - average 4-5 brake jobs in 200-300K miles (talking stop and go traffic here, friends...since that's where I live).  Figure about $750-1000 in repair costs.  Take out a set of rotors and the cost is much higher.
---Prius= never wears out the brakes. Period. I've seen one customer abuse that wiped them out in the first two months (driving with one foot hard on the brake, and the other hard on the throttle---not sure what the regeneration theory was with that!)  I've seen Prius with over 400k miles on the ORIGINAL brakes, all the way around.

2.  Standard with front wheel drive - at least one set of CV shafts (front axles).  They get hammered on every shift, especially while turning.  At 300K they may be ready for the second set.  Customer pay will be about $500-800.
---Prius= never.  Zero repairs.  Computer controlled power application and no shifting.  Prius will turn sharper than about anything, because they can get away with it.  They KNOW you'll never hammer the CV joints, because the computer won't let you.

3.  Standard with automatic trans - Yes, you'll probably get the $3000-4000 estimate one day.  That'll be when you bail, ready or not.  200K on an automatic is good service, but it will wear out eventually. 
---Prius= no transmission.  No torque convertor, no clutches, no hydraulics, no leaking cooler or lines, no valve body/filter replacements.  They just keep going; after all...it's just a pair of permanent magnet 3-phase AC motors on a single big planetary.

4.  Standard with starter and alternator - let's hope only one of each, at about $400-500 apiece these days.
---Prius= no starter and no alternator.  If the permanent magnet AC motor (which is both generator and starter) is working well at 20K miles, it'll probably be working well at 250K miles.  3-phase AC motors are not very trouble prone (on the big earthmoving equipment they WELD them on, so they don't worry about loose or broken bolts!)

5.  Standard with hydraulic power steering (rack and pinion) - somewhere along the line the rack end seals wear out, the boots fill with oil, and the mess under the hood adds damaged motor mounts and bushings to the bill.  I spent over $1200 fixing one of my high mileage cars.
----Prius= electric power steering, means no hydraulic leaks or attendant collateral damage.  Yes, there was a campaign on the early design...not because of the design; the fix has worked great.  The newest units have the electrics inside the car, protected from weather, heat, etc.

6.  Standard with Air Conditioning compressor - yes, it is not cheap to replace.  Typically starting and stopping with a magnetic clutch.  Many will get by with just a new clutch in 200-300K miles.  Another $400+ repair bill.
---Prius= self contained electric compressor, similar to your refrigerator.  Of course, you're not likely to rear end somebody in traffic with your refrigerator...you can take out an A/C compressor that way.  Otherwise, who knows how long they'll last?

7.  Prius front tire wear = a little worse than Standard, with the same driver.  Most noticeable in the early months of ownership.  When you're off the throttle and turning hard, the regeneration will eat a little more rubber.  Most owners get the hang of it, and don't have a problem as time goes on.

8.  Prius diagnostic and repair= can be tough after a crash.  The on-board diagnostics is very good, but I get hooped once in a while and really get to scratching my head.  Like anything else that's new, we learn from experience.

9.  Standard at trade-in or resale - 200-300K miles it's pretty much a "bottom feeder".  It's served well, and time to get out of the commuter wars.  It won't bring much, and we all know it.
---Prius= Buyers are still jumping on them, even at high mileage.  Only time will tell how that will work out; they're bound to wear out eventually.  There have been a few batteries going away, but they sure seem to be going further than predicted.  Hopefully the price will keep coming down (which has been slowly happening).

10.  Standard catalytic convertor- even odds you'll get to buy one in all those miles.  That's how it goes, because the cat has to be sized small enough to fast light and still last up to 100K.  Cats are getting spendy, due to the precious metals.
---Prius= higher cat capacity and less possiblilty of damage (it's even warrented longer).  I haven't seen any go bad, yet.

Keep in mind, my experience is only with the mild weather here in SoCal.  I think part of the reason they do well are the buyers.  People that beat up a car are not typical hybrid buyers.  The people that run security patrols ABSOLUTELY swear by the Prius.  It is the most profitable vehicle they've ever used.  When you tell them they need a new $4000 HV battery at 300-400K miles, they don't even blink...."fix it up, and call me as soon as it's ready!"  For most of them, it's the first bill they ever paid.  This car is NOT profitable for a Service Department, compared to conventional vehicles....the customers aren't spending much money.

And last; about that gas mileage stuff.  You may get better specific mileage under controlled (higher speed) testing with a few other cars.  NOTHING will give better mileage in stop and go daily commuting, or running around town.  Anybody who tells you they can get 43-45 mpg running around the shopping malls on Saturday (in something besides a Prius, Insight, or Civic) is full of it.  Prius gets over 40 MPG so often it's boring.  Oh, by the way....you never have to get a smog check.  You just drive by the referee with your registration, he certifies that it is, indeed, a hybrid and the warning lights aren't ON, and you get your tags.

Thanks for suffering through my long post.  As you can see, it turns out there was more to the story than any of us ever expected. 

One last thought; regarding the concern about the high voltage risks....I've not heard of anybody hurt.  The system uses a very efficient Safety Main Relay multi-stage function, similar to designs that have been successful in Diesel-Electric locomotives for about 60 years or more; never a welded relay.  In the course of my duty, I've attended to crashed Prius.  Shut down and securing the system has not been a problem.

Regards, JimL