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Author Topic: Watts linkage instead of panhard bar  (Read 17619 times)

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Offline 1212FBGS

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Re: Watts linkage instead of panhard bar
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2007, 11:44:15 AM »
Tie rod ends are a wonderfull idea... i think they would be way, way  stronger than rod ends... altho not as trick looking but probably alot cheeper...
kent

Offline 1977MGBV8

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Re: Watts linkage instead of panhard bar
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2007, 08:29:15 PM »
I like the tie rod idea.  Do you have a trick for making the mating tapers. I am thinking how you could make this work other than making some tapers and bung weld thing into a chassis?


Offline SPARKY

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Re: Watts linkage instead of panhard bar
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2007, 09:43:48 PM »
  With mild steel---an 18" breaker over bar and an old tie rod end..  lol
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Offline interested bystander

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Re: Watts linkage instead of panhard bar
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2007, 09:57:52 PM »
Better not tell anybody, but there's at least two suspended roadsters going over 200 with TCI urethane bushed rod ends on their 4 links AND panhard bars- I know one has never spun (don't follow the other's  runs).

Personally, tie rod ends went out in the day of Tom Beatty, Alex Xydias, et al.
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Offline hitz

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Re: Watts linkage instead of panhard bar
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2007, 10:01:04 PM »
Straddle mounted good hiem joint assembly is stronger than tie rod end. It also has virtually no play. Can't fall out even if worn out.



Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Watts linkage instead of panhard bar
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2007, 12:51:04 PM »
I am not a fan of tie rod ends but if you are going to use them then do the taper the right way and use a taper reamer to make the hole fit. You can get them at Coleman Racing, www.colmanracing.com. They have both the 7 degree and 10 degree reamers depending on the rod end you use. The one they have is for the GM or MOPAR ball joints but will probably work for tie rods also.

I agree with Hitz, a good rod end (Read NMB here) is far better than a tie rod end and in double shear it is probaby 3 times stronger.

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Offline interested bystander

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Re: Watts linkage instead of panhard bar
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2007, 08:34:38 PM »
Rex, knowing your road racing experience from previous posts , maybe you could respond to my query a few posts up on this subject about roll center height regards relatively slow acelerating vehicles going in a straight line. ( Some roadsters excepted). Probably specifically regards live axles. ???
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Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Watts linkage instead of panhard bar
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2007, 01:55:06 PM »
Interested Bystander.
Regarding roll center and acceleration I am wondering if you really mean "anti squat" or "anti dive"? The roll center is important when discussing side loads, typically those you have when going around a corner and since B'ville cars really don't worry about cornering much I would think that roll center placement would not be a big concern. Having said that I would also not recommend having a high roll center on either end of a B'ville car as it "may" assist the car to roll over if it is in a spin, as a high roll center imposes high jacking forces that want to lift the car when it is subject to high side loads such as a spin.

As far as anti sqat or anti dive, these charteristics defined by the location of the axle location arms as seen from a side view of the suspension. My thinking is that at a place like Bonneville or El Mirage where traction is very limited you would not want much of either anti squat or anti dive. At a place like the Texas Mile or any of the concrete strips a little anti squat may help acceleration. Anti dive is more realted to braking forces being used to prevent the car from nosing down during braking and again not really applicable to land speed cars. To much of either of these can cause the suspension to bind.

I think that when going in a straight line the most important thing is that the location of the axles be kept in the very best optimum alignment possible which means no tricky suspension stuff that is used on road racing cars and long locating links to minimize any type of roll steer. I think it is really hard to beat a straight axle, front and rear, each located with long, parallel links. Having said that I am going completely against that recommendation in the design of the suspension for my lakester!

Rex
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Offline Cajun Kid

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Re: Watts linkage instead of panhard bar
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2008, 06:15:19 PM »
I have a stock wheelbase 1933 Ford Vicky chassis.  The front is a 5" dropped axel. Super Bell I beam , front suspension is 4 bar type complete from Pete and Jakes.  I hope this will work ?  The rear is a 9" Ford ( Nascar det/Loker Unit)  using Pete and Jake Ladder bars with Panhard bar and coilovers.

Will I be ok,, I will Run this year at Maxton then hope in the fall to run the USFRA event.

Charles
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Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Watts linkage instead of panhard bar
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2008, 07:38:49 PM »
Just my own preference but I'd rather see a 3 or 4 bar set up than a ladder bar rear end. If the car does get sideways you'd stand a much better chance of recovery with the much softer set up. Ladder bars effectively form a seriously stiff anti-roll bar unless one side is built to rotate on the housing. The stiffer end of the car in roll will usually give up grip first, thus my preference for keeping roll stiffness at least somewhat similar front to rear.

Pete

Offline Cajun Kid

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Re: Watts linkage instead of panhard bar
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2008, 08:08:03 PM »
Pete, thanks for the info, it does make sense, heck I even understood it... My old drag racing days and search for that nostalgic look sent me to the ladder bar set up. We did mount the front to the inside of the frame rather than as Pete and Jakes had them angled towards the tranny mount. We also used front bushings rather than the hard style mount.   Panhard bar is just over 22 inches, Should I back off the spring rate on the rear coilovers?

Also what are your thoughts on my front suspension set up ?
Will it work on paved as well as salt ( I see the same suspension on lots of cars in all the books I have on Bonneville, most 29 to 34 Roadsters I see have the Dropped axel set up???

Charles
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Fastest Standing Mile at Maxton 196.967mph
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Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Watts linkage instead of panhard bar
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2008, 09:02:46 PM »
The longer you can make the panhard rod the better. A longer rod moves the axle side to side less than a shorter one in relation to the frame / body assembly. I might even look at a watts link because there is no sideways travel. Try the springs you were intending to use. Good luck!

Pete

Offline Cajun Kid

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Re: Watts linkage instead of panhard bar
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2008, 09:33:55 PM »
Thanks, I have two panhard lenghts, I will see if I can use the longer one.

Hope It all come together in time for Maxton's April Event...

Have a nice night.
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OHIO
B/CGALT, C/CGALT

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A/CBFALT, B/CBFALT, C/CBFALT, C/CFALT, C/CGALT,   E/CGALT, E/CFALT

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Offline interested bystander

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Re: Watts linkage instead of panhard bar
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2008, 09:40:19 PM »
SIMPLISTIC advice regards suspension linkage.

AVOID HINGE BIND in all dimensions!
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Offline Cajun Kid

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Re: Watts linkage instead of panhard bar
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2008, 09:46:05 PM »
If through the entire compression and rebound strokes of the suspension, if it does not bind then. One could assume that on the track it would not bind either ?

Is there another way to check before I get it on the road?

Thanks
ECTA Record Holder Maxton
E/CBFALT, E/CBGALT, E/CGALT, E/CFALT, A/CGALT, C/CGALT, D/CGALT, C/CBGALT, B/CBGALT, C/CFALT
OHIO
B/CGALT, C/CGALT

LTA Record Holder and 200 Club Member
A/CBFALT, B/CBFALT, C/CBFALT, C/CFALT, C/CGALT,   E/CGALT, E/CFALT

Fastest Standing Mile at Ohio  203.343mph
Fastest Standing Mile at Maxton 196.967mph
Fastest Standing 1.5 Mile at Loring 213.624mph
Fastest Standing Mile at Loring 204.109mph

http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/ii43/cajunkid5690/

Blog    www.venablerodsandracing.com
email   venableracing@gmail.com