Modified and special construction.

[willieworld]

My friend Eric Ross and fellow club member, wants me to build him a bike. I have the motor and transmission in the frame jig. The bike will run in the 2000cc pushrod class. So I started reading the rule book cause he wants to run the bike in as many classes as he can next year. We are thinking about modified production and special construction(A). But upon reading the rule book I ran into some problems that maybe somebody can help me out with.
1. Modified production says  the modified class is intended for "modified" production models and not purpose built race bikes.
2. Frames must be based on an oem type frame or production replacement having similiar geometry. Engine manufacturer must be from the same manufacturer as the frame.


Special Construction
1. Special Constuction class is intended for purpose built race bikes. 
2. A bike entered in special construction class cannot be entered as a modified production class entry within the same racing season.

Ok...Here's my question. As you know there is no M class at El Mirage. So if you race there in A the rulebook says you can't switch to M the rest of the race season. If you go to Bonneville after racing at El Mirage in A, can you race there in M.

It looks to me like if your bike fits in M it can't run in A and if it fits in A you can't run in M or did I overlook something?Because Eric has to run in A at El Mirage there is no M in May,  June, July. And then in August he wants to run in M and A at Speedweek and then go back to El Mirage and run in A in September, October and November. But the way I read the rulebook it's not going to be allowed.
Can anybody out there shed some light on this.
One more thing, If you run in Modified Production and you build a frame based on the oem type frame having similiar geometry the rulebook says that the engine must be from the same manufacturer as the frame. Does that mean if I supply the frame I also have to supply the engine. Or does that mean that if I build a replacement frame having similiar geometry as a harley frame does harley have to supply the engine?
Hope someone can help me out. According to the rulebook you can't do it. But that doesn't make any sense otherwise why would it say if you run in A you can't run in Modified Production the rest of the racing season.Would that mean if you ran in Modified first then you could switch to A
If you really don't know please don't try to help me out because I'm confused enough already.


Thanks Willie Buchta

[Nortonist 592]

If you run an M at El Mirage its still an M but the A and M classes are COMBINED at El Mirage.  There is one of our club members that runs A/VG at El Mirage and M/VG at Bonneville without any problems.  I think if you build a Harley replica frame and use a Harley engine you will be in M but if you build a "sort of" Harley frame you'll get stuck in A.  A known fact is if you use S&S cases or any other you are going straight to A regardless of your frame.  My Norton has a bone stock frame but because I use a Weslake engine I'm in A.  I don't have a problem with that as I don't give a damn what class they put me in.  I just want to run.

[Sumner]

....................  I don't have a problem with that as I don't give a damn what class they put me in.  I just want to run.

Best comment on here in a long time  ,

Sum

[JackD]

The prohibition against running a legal assembly that meets the rule requirements is a lame attempt to restrict the bike from setting records in multiple classes the same year.
S+S cases and complete motors are used in a number of HD clone bikes now that are produced in excess of the number required for production.
Too many useless rules are generating most of the confusion.
For example, what does replacement production mean ?
Does it mean a direct replacement that is produced by the OEM in excess of the required 500 ?

[Seldom Seen Slim]

"...he wants to run in M and A at Speedweek..."

Nope, not allowed since the rule change before the '07 season.  My one time running at EM I labelled my M/PS/F bike as A/PS/F since they don't have the "M" designation.  And it was the November event, last of the season.  And it was before the rule prohibiting changing from M to A during the season.

I've gone over to "A" only now -- the bike clearly is in the altered rules, not in the modified rules.

[panic]

Back in the vaudeville days there used to be a regular repertory of jokes about railroad time tables.
They all contain, in addition to the actual comment:
Q. "Will the schedule be the same when I come back on Thursday to board the train? Will the ticket I just bought still be good then?"
A. "Ask me on Thursday"

(rimshot, blackout)

[JackD]

Racers most often spend more time thinking about working around the rules than the rulers spend writing them.
The objective of the rules should be to make it safe and fare for the competition, not to make rules that obsolete those that have gone before.
Take the racers out of the loop and you birth a laffer.
Don't tailor them in a misguided effort to restrict development.
For example, take a complete M bike and run it on a Monday.
That night, take all the parts and put them on another frame and enter it the next day as an A.
Then drag out the Sidecar frame and repeat.
Now sell the formerly used frames to a bud and they can start all over.

"It is your choice to call it jogging or running, but you still have to get there."  (me_

  "It is like putting all the money and planning into the wedding and not enough into the marriage."

[Stainless1]

Willie, his options at speedweek whether A or M are open or partially streamlined... gas or fuel.... blown or unblown....
if he runs combinations of those his week will be full, he shouldn't worry about that part.  My guess is that you will build an A bike, that way there are no compromises.  I've seen your work, he should have fun...
History:
The car guys that run the outfit were disturbed by bikers getting 5-6 records a week with the same vehicle only making minor changes while in the impound after each record run, oh, until they noticed it could be done with a car, see the Hot Rod entry....  new rules to follow I'm sure, film at 11...

Most racers don't try to think of ways to circumvent the rules, most try to think of ways to use the rules to their benefit (not Jack)

[Dean Los Angeles]

Most racers don't try to think of ways to circumvent the rules, most try to think of ways to use the rules to their benefit (not Jack)

Hmm, let me see if I can break this down.

most try to think of ways to use the rules to their benefit

OK, take the rules and see how they fit what I have, and how can I modify to take advantage of it. Yep, perfectly legal.

Most racers don't try to think of ways to circumvent the rules

Cheating? Us? Only the slow ones don't. Circumventing the rules is why the rule book is the size that it is. I am already "circumventing" one rule and plan three more next year!

[Stainless1]

Cheating? Us? Only the slow ones don't. Circumventing the rules is why the rule book is the size that it is. I am already "circumventing" one rule and plan three more next year!

Dean, glad to see you are proud of cheating and not being caught, I'm sure it makes you proud of your accomplishments.  I have always thought there wasn't much pride in cheating to win, and definitely never needed to in LSR.  I always thought the thickness of the book was due to safety and the number of expanding classes, not to control cheaters.  But what do I know...
I guess that's the difference between those of you (fast cheaters) on the inside and those of us (slow record holders) on the outside.

Added after I re-read both Deans previous and my post... Dean, innovation is not cheating, seeing the rule with an outside the box thought is not cheating, I always thought your bike had innovation.  Did I miss something?

[willieworld]

my posting here was not to break any rule but better understand them --i set 3 records this year at speedweek on the same bike and only switched from gas to fuel (in the fuel class i ran my own blend of gas ) i had a pretty full week if i didnt have to make a rookie run i think i could have set 4 records with record runs friday afternoon --but suppose instead of switching from gas to fuel i wanted to switch from m-pbg to a-pbg-- the way i read the rules you cannot switch from a to m in any racing season but you can switch from m to a   - im building a friend a bike and he is only intrested in the blown fuel and gas records in a and m and doesnt want to build 2 bikes --he is not a record hog but has been racing a couple of years and like (most) everyone else would like a record - that is why we need to understand the rules not to break or bend them but just to follow them --thanks  willie buchta

[Nortonist 592]

If your friend wants A and M records why not build him an M for next year and change it to an A for 2009?   If you build a bike to A rules then it should not be able to run as an M.  My feelings are if you build your own frame then it should be in A, regardless if you make it an exact replica of a production frame.  Its home made not a factory build.  And by being home brewed it shouldn't be able to qualify as modified production for the simple reason that its not production.  If I were to build a modified Triumph (for the sake of arguement) and someone showed up with a special (read home made)frame claiming it to be modified production I'd be pretty upset.  The word circumvent has been used in this thread and it seems to me that that is the key word in this whole thing.  Not cheating, just trying to get around or bend the rules.

[Stainless1]

Well I spent a lot of time typing, and 592 chimed in but here is mine

Willie, I read the book, then re-read it, about 7 times.

The last paragraph in 7.F, says if you meet the requirements for Modified, then you can't run altered....
The last paragraph in 7.G says once you are an A bike you can't go to modified for the remainder of the season...

While the official interpretation of the rules should come from the Motorcycle Rules Committee Chair, listed as Russ O'daly, I'll say that you could run Modified at speedweek and change something to make it illegal for modified, like put a seat on that is below the top of the rear tire, that makes you illegal in M so you have to change to A, then it sounds like it could be done.  You just need to start with a  frame based on an OEM type or production replacement having similar geometry.... That line is probably the "Jack level" riddle of this question, so you are right back where you started, sorry

Send a tech request email to Russ... techchairmc@scta-bni.org  with any luck you will get an official reply

[Dean Los Angeles]

Its home made not a factory build.

Ouch! Stop that! It's NEVER "home made" it's "custom".

The rules are in place to enforce . . .  the rules! Too many modified production bikes were running in the special construction class. If you have a modified production based frame, run it there.

If you have a road racer, or custom frame, then special construction is the place for it.

The concept of running one bike in both used to be normal. It's pointless to have these classes if you can run the same bike in production, modified production, and special construction by moving some duct tape around.

The only reason modified production bikes can be competitive in special construction at all is because not enough people build special construction frames.

I'm doing my part.

[Nortonist 592]

As I said earlier, my frame is bone stock, just as it left the factory 47 years ago but I am in A because of an engine swap.  NBD.  I'm still the record holder in 500 APS/PG.