Author Topic: Choosing my gears wisely  (Read 12181 times)

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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Choosing my gears wisely
« on: November 07, 2007, 01:22:43 AM »
Newbie here, with a gearing question.

I'm working on an MG Midget to compete in the I/GT class.  My vintage road race buddies think I'll be able to get peak power out of my engine at about 7000 RPM, and it should wind to 7800 without throwing a shoe.

With a 1 litre 5-port 4, should I be building the engine for a wider torque band and going with numerically lower gears, or taking advantage of the high RPM potential and gearing the car for peak power at the traps?  My calculations, with 25 inch tires, at 7000 RPM with 3:90 gears, gets me about 130 mph. 5400 RPM with 3.08 gears will get me the same speed, but with those gears, I suspect I'm losing some much-needed torque multiplication from the rear-end.  The Midget is small, but it is a bit of a brick and there's a lot of wind resistance to overcome.  And despite years of racing development of the Austin "A" block, 105 horse is about the most anybody I know has been able to get out of them.

Any thoughts?
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline maguromic

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Re: Choosing my gears wisely
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2007, 02:19:56 AM »
What gears are you running in the trans?  Do you plan on running a overdrive in your trans?  All this will have a lot to do with optimizing your final ratio and your engine potential.  The best way is to buy the gear split software from Land Racing and play with it.  You can see the graph and the effects it has from different gear combos before you settle on transmission gears or the rear gears.  Good luck on your project.
“If you haven’t seen the future, you are not going fast enough”

Offline 1212FBGS

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Re: Choosing my gears wisely
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2007, 02:23:41 AM »
RPM baby.!....cant do without it...
kent

Offline RichFox

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Re: Choosing my gears wisely
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2007, 01:06:57 PM »
When i ran my Lotus 907 in a real brick, '29 Ford roadster, I was pulling about 8400 rpm in the mile. I sold the car to a guy who thought that if I got a record using 4.60 gears he would be really fast with 3.20s It refused to go even 120 mph and finially blew.

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Choosing my gears wisely
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2007, 03:10:20 PM »
MM
The record holder in that class before 1980 was an AH Sprite (about 97 MPH).  Since that time it has been held by 2 different Abarths.  The last guy to get that record did it by less than 1 MPH...
Good luck with the Midget, I would plan on peak HP to be at 122 and keep the gear spread close if possible
Have fun, that is a fun class
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline Sumner

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Re: Choosing my gears wisely
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2007, 04:54:36 PM »
...................The last guy to get that record did it by less than 1 MPH...
Good luck with the Midget, I would plan on peak HP to be at 122 and keep the gear spread close if possible........................

I agree, don't get greedy, go for the record and then you will have data to see what is realistic and can make appropriate changes.

Good luck,

Sum

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Choosing my gears wisely
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2007, 06:24:22 PM »
Horse power is what makes you go fast, build it for max hp and then gear it for your max speed at close to the max hp rpm. Torque makes it easy to pull away from a stop light but doesn't give you mph.

Rex
Rex

Not much matters and the rest doesn't matter at all.

Offline panic

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Re: Choosing my gears wisely
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2007, 07:21:01 PM »
If you only need to make about 105 mph (?) to be competitive, you need either a much smaller tire or a much taller final drive ratio.
Using the 25" tire, 7000 RPM and 3.90:1 = 133.5 mph.
Required ratio for 105 mph: 133.5 ÷ 105 × 3.90 = 4.96:1.
I don't know of any factory axle ratio above 4.22, which will be far short, and you don't have much ground clearance to throw away on smaller tires.
If you use the 4.22, the engine will only turn 5,957 RPM. The speed of the car will be limited to the power it can make at that RPM.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Choosing my gears wisely
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2007, 08:15:01 PM »
What gears are you running in the trans?  Do you plan on running a overdrive in your trans?  All this will have a lot to do with optimizing your final ratio and your engine potential. 

I was planning on using the stock gearbox, 3.200:1, 1.916:1, 1.357:1,1:1.  I suspect an overdrive might actually cost me some top end, given the added friction and the small displacement of the engine.

Last I checked, 121.779 is the current record, so 122.000 is the magic number.  In fact, if I go with Panic's suggestion, the 4:22's, I'm at 123.37 at 7,000 rpm (on paper, anyway), which is right where I want to be. 

I'm grateful for all the posts.  RichFox's comment intuitively rings true, if I'm reading him right - with a small engine, wind it tight and let the torque multiplication of a numerically higher rear end provide the extra leverage to push it to speed.

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline 1212FBGS

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Re: Choosing my gears wisely
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2007, 08:34:16 PM »
RPM baby..!....ring its neck and pick up the pieces....
kent

Offline panic

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Re: Choosing my gears wisely
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2007, 11:26:10 PM »
The torque multiplication isn't a variable - the engine must be turning very close to its power peak, and you calculate the gear ratio backwards from that. What exact ratio is, not really important.
An OD, in this case, would be no use since it slows the engine down even more. The exception might be if there were an even higher numerical set available (4.50, etc.), and the OD would allow an extra gear - but only a real advantage if the 4-OD shift is closer than your existing 3-4 (which is terrible).
When you shift the engine falls off to 5,158 RPM. It's important that any development work you do doesn't create a major hole in the torque curve above this speed, even if it reduces peak power slightly. This shift will occur (4.22:1 ratio) at 91 mph, and if you don't have enough power at 5,158 to pull up above 91 the car won't go any faster. I don't think it's likely but moving the torque curve around with resonance etc. sometimes creates some strange effects - don't trip over one. You don't need a dyno to detect this - just accel in 2 or 3 from 5,000 and see if it picks up a lot suddenly.
There are close-ratio internal sets for this box that move 3 much closer to 4, which is what you want. Typically, they compromise 1st quite a bit but that's not much harm on a long course. If you haven't chosen a cam or tuned intake/exhaust lengths yet I suggest you explore your power spread vs. gear ratios before making a final choice - closer ratios means the power peak can be narrower.

Offline panic

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Re: Choosing my gears wisely
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2007, 11:31:28 PM »
Now, if you were interested in making the car go faster (as opposed to working in class limits), for much less money than would be spent on porting, cam, rockers, Webers, etc. a used Eaton M45 could be belt-driven off your crank pulley and pressurize your existing carbs. It's safer at Wendover than at home because of the low pressure, and your pistons may work well with moderate boost.
More on small blowers: http://victorylibrary.com/supercharger/super.htm

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Choosing my gears wisely
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2007, 12:51:36 AM »
Thanks, Panic.  I was oblivious to the tranny gear spacing issue, and what you're saying makes a lot of sense. 

Regarding the supercharger, I've got one on my MGB summer driver.  Moss Motors makes a simple little kit using an Eaton and a single SU carb, and while my wife's Impreza will still blow it into the weeds, it's certainly the cheapest way to increase horsepower (and torque) on what is essentially a tractor motor.  Much less finicky than the twin SU's, and my highway MPG went from 24 to 28.  More power, better gas mileage, and less maintenance.  The trifecta.

But I'm building the Midget for the class.  It's going to be tough, but I like the discipline that the rules bring to the effort – it’ll keep me focused.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Sumner

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Re: Choosing my gears wisely
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2007, 09:59:29 AM »
Thanks, Panic.  I was oblivious to the tranny gear spacing issue, and what you're saying makes a lot of sense.......................

If you need them I have spreadsheets on my site that will show the rpm drop between gears for a shift point at any rpm and for any gear change:

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html

c ya,

Sum

Offline El Wayno

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Re: Choosing my gears wisely
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2007, 10:32:40 AM »
An overdrive tranny might not be a bad idea. Here is why. My buddy has a overdrive MGB tranny in his MGA. It is electric. I think one of the kind that replaces the tail section of the tranny. It has a switch on the knob. Being that you have a B I am sure you are familiar with this. Anyway his overdrve can be used in any gear, which effectively makes it a gearsplitter, and give him 8 forward gears. How much loss it would add to the driveline I have no idea.