LSR 94-98 Ford Mustang

[SteveD]

What is the fastest anybody may recall a Mustang 94-98 Vintage has gone?  We know we have the power but no to sure about aerodynamics?  Can anybody help?  We would like to see 300mph.  Any suggestios or comments would be appreciated.  We set the C/PS record at the WF's with a 2003 Cobra and the car felt rock solid with all stock body panels and wings.  I have built 2 record cars and want to do one for myself.  It will be an old drag car converted for LSR.......................Thanks
SteveD
in Houston TX. 

[Sumner]

What is the fastest anybody may recall a Mustang 94-98 Vintage has gone?  We know we have the power but no to sure about aerodynamics?  Can anybody help?  We would like to see 300mph.  Any suggestios or comments would be appreciated.  We set the C/PS record at the WF's with a 2003 Cobra and the car felt rock solid with all stock body panels and wings.  I have built 2 record cars and want to do one for myself.  It will be an old drag car converted for LSR.......................Thanks
SteveD
in Houston TX. 

Congrats on the 213 record.  To see if you have the HP take the HP it took you to run the 213 and multiply that by 2.8 to see how much HP it would take to run that same car 300.

Someone else can probably tell you, but Cook ran a Ford, but I can't remember if it was a mustang or not that ran in the 290's.  As I remember though the motor was a mopar or an after market copy of a Hemi. 

Don't forget that you are also going to need way more weight than you probably are running now.

Good luck,

Sum

[GH]

Sumner, Mike Cooks car was a Ford Thunderbird, about a 1986 model, not sure on that, it was on some of the posters. Cya

[Sumner]

Sumner, Mike Cooks car was a Ford Thunderbird, about a 1986 model, not sure on that, it was on some of the posters. Cya

I knew it was an animal of some sort, bird, horse.................

Sum

[Dynoroom]

There might be a reason no one has tried to go 300 mph in a '94 Mustang. On the other hand tell a racer he can't do something and stand back! I seem to remember what they said about a stock bodied car going 300 mph in '82 or so....
Good Luck!

[revolutionary]

Took a bit of effort to get that firebird folling that fast.

Off the top of your head does any know if you can draw out the wheelbase for a Production car to keep it stable at speed or are your stuck with the short wheelbase?

[dwarner]

Production class cars must remain siloutte stock. That means the wheel base can not be stretched. How about Gas Coupe or Altered class with that Mustang? That's how Mike and the Kugel Family did it. (on the surface)

DW

[Sumner]

Production class cars must remain siloutte stock. That means the wheel base can not be stretched. How about Gas Coupe or Altered class with that Mustang? That's how Mike and the Kugel Family did it. (on the surface)

DW

Mike clear this up, but didn't you guys run Gas Coupe and then just tape the turn signal lights and maybe part of the grill to move to Altered??

Also let's not forget John Rains 297.663 2006 D/PS record that was set at World of Speed.  Pretty impressive.  Does anyone know the speeds on his two runs and the exit speeds??

c ya,

Sum

[maguromic]

I remember reading in one of the aerodynamic sites that they did some aero tweaks to keep the car stable.  Something like the air dam configuration. 

Maybe mike will chime in.

[Dynoroom]

Production class cars must remain siloutte stock. That means the wheel base can not be stretched. How about Gas Coupe or Altered class with that Mustang? That's how Mike and the Kugel Family did it. (on the surface)

DW

Mike clear this up, but didn't you guys run Gas Coupe and then just tape the turn signal lights and maybe part of the grill to move to Altered??

Also let's not forget John Rains 297.663 2006 D/PS record that was set at World of Speed.  Pretty impressive.  Does anyone know the speeds on his two runs and the exit speeds??

c ya,

Sum

Let me start by saying that IMO the gen III F-body Firebird/Camaro is one of the best balanced & has the best factory aero package of any production sedan with the Firebird having a better factory rear spoiler than the Camaro if you are running gas coupe. Some other cars might have a better c/d but it takes a total package to run fast at the salt.
Next I would like to point out that several Firebirds have exceeded 300 mph either in the mile or terminal speed. Of course that includes Kugel & LeFevers, Lindsley & Leggett, John Rains, and in a gen IV Firebird of MacDonald & Pitts.
Now the aero information. Most of this is in print if you look for it but the stock c/d for a '82-'92 Firebird is .32, lowering the car and removing the side mirrors and detailing the trim reduces that to about .28.  It takes about 600 hp to go 200 mph in this car (roughly) so cube the power to double the speed. We ran the car in Gas Coupe and Altered by covering head/parking lights or grill openings just as many others have before us. The rear spoiler produces about 800 lbs. of downforce to offset the 400 lbs. of lift at 200 mph. The other things you need to consider are total and front to rear weight distribution, caster, steering ratio, shock valving, spring rates, exhaust system exit, and a few dozens of other things.
The GM F-body cars also have a wheelbase advantage over the Fox body Mustang but not by much, but if you look at the overall length you'll see how it might be easier to balance the F-body, and it's the little things that make a record setter.
So much to tell but hard to put it all down in print.
We never had our car in the tunnel but we did have access to data, this has been around if you paid attention to what some others before us did. Dave & Lionel are working at a slight disavantage as the gen IV cars are not as good as the gen III cars to the tune of about 300 hp @ 300 mph.

[SteveD]

Thanks for all the kind words.  We had 800hp to run 213mph and I'm thinging another 1000rwhp should do it.  We are going to keep it a small block. I saw many cars that had 671 's sticking out of the hood in 69 camaros and they were in inpound alot.......a magazineen car especially.  I really want those guys!  we will bring several different front ends and would like to run several different classes.  My shop builds Mustangs, I can't use a Camaro body even if it's better areodynamically.   I guess we will see how far it we can go with the 95 Stang chassis.  I have seen plenty of drag pieces but nothing geared to the salt flats.......that may be telling me something but I'm hard headed.  Any help would be appreciated.   What is the stock Chassis record?
SteveD
in Houston 

[Dynoroom]

Thanks for all the kind words.  We had 800hp to run 213mph and I'm thinging another 1000rwhp should do it.  We are going to keep it a small block. I saw many cars that had 671 's sticking out of the hood in 69 camaros and they were in inpound alot.......a magazineen car especially.  I really want those guys!  we will bring several different front ends and would like to run several different classes.  My shop builds Mustangs, I can't use a Camaro body even if it's better areodynamically.   I guess we will see how far it we can go with the 95 Stang chassis.  I have seen plenty of drag pieces but nothing geared to the salt flats.......that may be telling me something but I'm hard headed.  Any help would be appreciated.   What is the stock Chassis record?
SteveD
in Houston 

Steve I think you'll find that John Rains holds the production speed record @ 297 mph with a 303 terminal speed.
As to you ability to make 1800 hp, I'm sure you can but....
can it run 10 miles @ WOT?
Good Luck, enjoy your project.

[tortoise]

It takes about 600 hp to go 200 mph in this car (roughly) so cube the power to double the speed.

If I took that literally that would mean you'd need 216 million horsepower to go 400. Better turn the boost way up.

We had 800hp to run 213mph and I'm thinging another 1000rwhp should do it.

Maybe not. As Sum points out, it might take over 2200 hp.

[Sumner]

Thanks for all the kind words.  We had 800hp to run 213mph and I'm thinking another 1000rwhp should do it.  We are going to keep it a small block. I saw many cars that had 671 's sticking out of the hood in 69 camaros and they were in impound alot.......a magazineen car especially.  I really want those guys!  we will bring several different front ends and would like to run several different classes.  My shop builds Mustangs, I can't use a Camaro body even if it's better aerodynamically.   I guess we will see how far it we can go with the 95 Stang chassis.  I have seen plenty of drag pieces but nothing geared to the salt flats.......that may be telling me something but I'm hard headed.  Any help would be appreciated.   What is the stock Chassis record?
SteveD
in Houston 

Let's play with some numbers and remember that these are just numbers based on a bunch of guesses.

Above you mention 800 HP to run 213 and below that talk about 1000 RWHP.  I'm assuming the 800 wasn't RWHP.

Using the spreadsheets on my site:

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html

If I say your car currently has a Cd of .35 and a frontal area (at it's widest point) of 27 sq. ft. I figure (using the Drag Force-HP-Thrust-Weight spreadsheet) that it would take 623 RWHP to run 213 mph.  That might be realistic as that is 79% of what is your crank HP if the 800 was crank HP.  Also you would need 2200 lbs. down-force on the rear axle for traction for a .5 coefficient of traction for the salt.

Now using those Cd and Area numbers to run 300 mph with the car unchanged would take 1740 RWHP and 4400 lbs. on the rear axle for a .5 coefficient of traction for the salt.

--------------------------------------------------

Now let's say you can lower the Cd to .30. 

To run the 213 mph you would need 534 RWHP and 1900 lbs. on the rear axle.

To run 300 mph you would need 1492 RWHP and 3700 lbs. on the rear axle.

----------------------------------------------

Some things to consider here and you might already be aware of them. 

The importance of and relationship of the  Center of Gravity ( CG ) and Center of Pressure ( CP ) to one another:

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville%20-%20LSR%20Thoughts-4.html

Thrust and it's relation to weight (down force) on the drive wheels:

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville%20-%20LSR%20Thoughts-3.html

Gearing has to be dead on at these speeds with a realistic gear that will just run the required speed at the rpm where you have the HP to achieve that speed:

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville%20-%20LSR%20Thoughts-5.html

...........and like Mike said a dozen other things that have to be right on when you are shooting for a goal like you have set.  I don't mean to be pessimistic, but a 5 year plan would probably be a realistic minimum for the goal of running 300 mph in almost any type car.  You start running in the mid 200's and everything has to be right, track, car, crew, weather, time of day you run, etc..

Mike let loose with some really invaluable info in his post.  Thanks Mike, I almost always learn something from what you have to say.

Good luck and if I can help let me know (and I'm a Chevy guy),

Sum

[bvillercr]

Your gonna need a lot of ponnies to get that pony over 300.