BUB Operation

[landracing]

Paul,

I like all your comments, and it seems to be what you are saying is keep same system and refine on it? Is this what you are implying?

Personally I think they should nix the whole prestage system, where they line up, the list of bikes to run etc etc. Keep it simple. Everybody pulls into a line. This make one less thing the volunteer has to keep track of, there is no one who can abuse the system and it makes it fair for everybody.

As for keeping the prestage where it is so people can see the fastest part of a pass... We now have come to a fine line of, are you there to race or spectate? The people who are there to race want the most efficient way to get people down the course.

I would rather make the meet efficient so everybody gets to make alot of passes then worrying about if I see a few bikes at speed.

And my view is seen thousands of passes down the salt, most are pretty uneventful and rather boring, now I would however pull out of line to watch a streamliner or a bike like Aaron Wilsons.


Again want to race or spectate.

Jon

[pdubu]

Race of course.  Spectating does get boring. That said, given the typical wait at the start of the events I been to since 2000, you need something to do. So you may as well get a good view of the action, or at least be close to your pit in case you forgot something simple (important to those with little or no crew). Get the typical wait down to a couple hours and I would agree to move the queues to the starting lines. Then you're back at how many long vs. short course to run at a time unless all bikes line up at the short course start and long course bike are then dispatched to the long course start as they arrive near the head of the line.

As I keep mulling it through my head, the single line scenario has the most bang for the buck in improving takt time. I'd keep prestage as it allows the bottleneck, course availability, to be actively managed before building up a large amount of inventory (bikes and riders) at both starts. The list is just a method to avoid/settle arguments of who is in front of who.

For one that rides to the start, the ride out gives me a chance to warm things up and make sure everything is working as expected (or as happened last year, not working) before I am at speed.

While individuals are adaptable, groups tend not to be, ergo my comments more to refining the existing setup vs. an overhaul of the entire event. Those used to the pattern and general flow are less disrupted when they come back the following year.  Yep, it is different than other events, but some are only coming to this one due to the M/C focus. Logistically the centralized setup is more efficient for a number of parties.

I saw and heard about a number of competitors that were in line, and at times at the start, and weren't ready to race. That is why I made the comments about the rider and bike being available and ready past a certain point in the queue.  It wouldn't hurt if some people weren't slower than molasses getting their gear on either. Things will happen, but every bike should come to the queue ready to go.

I do have to say the RWB course (I was shaking down my engine and broke, so I didn't get a chance to run the international course this year), went as smooth as could be expected. It seems the goodness from that course didn't make it across to the international course. Some of it was due to supply and demand. It doesn't take as long to run as even the short course, but the pattern of prestaging, staging, and starting went fairly smooth. I never made it to the start without at least a couple of bikes from the prior group preparing to run. Using a single, mixed long/short line, the same process could work for the international course.  Trying to create the right mix out of multiple lines is always a problem especially with the variability associated with our form of racing. 

[bak189]

My only hope is that BUB reads and implements
some of the outstanding posts presented here.
Last year I send a (as a class sponsor) E-Mail noting several problems that could be resolved.
I received no answer.....and none were implemented  this year...(like putting the pre-stage outside the pits....like getting someone on the pit PA that could be usefull......use of CB'S)
1 way-runs for AMA National record will speed things up.
Small bikes on the RWYB course.
I could go on and on........but if BUB people choose to do it "their way"  the problems will not be corrected.  I would like to see on the BUB site within the next year noted how and what they plan to do in regards to the 2008 event.
If I like what I read....they have my support........if
no effort is made to correct all the various problems.......I am GONE.......It is as simple as that!!!

[landracing]

Bak,

I will tell you I have been in contact with Delvene.

A new system WILL BE DONE, for next year. And the system will be announced well before the BUB meet in 2008. Hopefully something announced early in the next year, like Feb-March.

I will say generally the meet is well done, getting thru tech, registration, pits etc. And Delvene does one hell of a job with what she has. Volunteers are a major problem, and a necessity for a good solid meet. Otherwise the limited ones pull double duties and get burned out fast.

If some good people just dedicated a half a day to the operation of the meet, it would help out the growing organization.

Jon

Comments here on the board ARE being read by the right people. So please continue on with suggestions, they know there is are problems, and they plan on fixing them.

[bak189]

Outstanding, Jon, the motorcycle/sidecar racers
appreciate what you are doing, it would be a real shame to have  a all M/C Speed Trial "go down the tubes". As you noted  on the whole the meet is working well........some of the logistics regarding
communications, pre-staging and ways to "speed up" the event are certainly needed.  I am aware that the BUB people did not expect the 350 plus entrees for this years event.....this certainly made it more difficult.  I know, Jon, that you have been right from the beginning, a strong supporter of a International meet for M/C's and I fully agree with you, that is why I have been very supportive of the BUB.  Delvene, has done a outstanding job
considering the work load she has been under......
hopefully she will get some good help to put the 2008 event together.  Speaking for myself and my team we will adopt a "wait and see" posture.
 

[panchop]

#492 I was a person who worked in the trailer on his bike while in line. since it was anywhere from 5-7 hours of waiting time in the line that didn't leave a lot of time to just play with it in the pits.
 I have a problem with the single line. While the concept is fine the sheer length of it seems daunting and people will tend to creep.  Besides it is almost painful to be surrounded by so much great machinery yet not really able to go look at it because i have to hang around my truck the whole time. I brought a CB only to leave it turned off. the radio communication was sparse at best. It would not be a huge demand to have to leave communications on all the time. Why could we not call groups of 10-20 competitors up to the prestage by radio or CB . If your not called don't be in the line. A large public sign up list would go a long way to assuring teams that they are on the list and not forgotten.. If i signed up 10 behind #xx on the list i know I'll be keeping an eye on him to see when he is called. As for getting off the course i agree that it is easy enough to stop within a mile for most of us. with only a single rear brake at 170 mph ( alright 168.9 )that was no problem but don't forget some of us are low and the turn off didn't seem to be marked. leaving me the choice of going another stretch to the next turn off our plowing a ditch in the salt. which i did once but it certainly made a mess. maybe some better markings to show the turn off coming up? I'll be back next year but i hope it goes a little smoother. as for the course workers. they kept their humor for the most part considering what they where being subjected to. There needs to be away to separate them from some of the more aggressive competitors who seemed to be able to get their way from sheer chutzpah

[Larry C]

#1194 I think pan chop hit on a very important subject: Communication; the radio was dead silent for most of the week. The job of an announcer is to keep people informed about what is going on. In this case, times from each bike should be coming into the tower by radio and should be announced as they come in. If there isn't communication from timing and scoreing then there should be (there was a couple of years ago) the announcer needs to keep people informed of whats happening, course is down because----, so and so is running against a record of---- etc,. etc. Funny hats are cute but the announcing staff needs to come to the party and realize why they are there in the first place. Why not use a CB system? It is what most everyone is used to and has worked on the salt for many, many years. Having said that perhaps the current FM radio is ok, we wouldn't know because it doesn't get used by the announcers!! Also, we as competitors need more info on the event web site prior to the event. For next year communication with the entrants via general information on the web site would go a long way.

[racin jason]

 I have run at two of the bub events and i am generally pleased with the way the event was run. The staff was friendly and tech was run well. I saw many new faces that the sport so desperately needs.the 2007 event had a huge increase in entries over 06 and 05. With some minor changes mentioned in the previous posts i think the event will evolve and improve next year. With the 300+ entrants this year the demand for a bike only race is clear. Hopefully next year we will pit and line up near the start of the two courses without the sign up sheets. the fact that you don't have to trailer your bike around is reason enough to go to the next BUB event.
We need to remember that BUB has only been doing this for 4 years the other guys have been doing it for 50+ years. Cut them some slack and lets help make it better for next year. i am going to put in some time at next years event volunteering i encourage the rest of you guys to do the same.
jason.

[dwarner]

Jon,

Good thread, well needed. This is a great way to focus all the attention to one spot.

While I don't attend the Bub meet, I agree the event is a good one and a postive for the LSR sport. I have been involved with the sport in excess of 40 years and would like to offer a couple of comments to the posts.

Never, I repeat, never in my experience has the use of lists or the assigning of run numbers worked at Bonneville. The shear size of the area and the whims of the competitors make the system unusable.

I do like the idea of either one or two parallel lines(two in order to tighten the line) and then send to the starting lines in a group of ten or twenty. The head of the line could be opposite the short course start line so it would be a direct shot to the start area for the short course runners. While they are running the long course people will be towing to their start, then they run.

I like Sum's idea of sending a second group to a pre-stage area to prep for their turn. The idea of having to abort a qualifying effort because you ran too close to the end of the day doesn't sit well with me. I will have to defer to the AMA regs on this one.

Communications. How about using Ron Christenson's 1610AM radio station to be the announcer. Everyone could have their radio on and be informed as to current conditions. Those that ride their bikes are most likely to be in close proximity of a tow vehicle and can keep in touch that way. The officials and Ron would have to work closely together to make sure that everyone is on the same page.

DW

[pdubu]

A problem I noted when the prestage overseer (aka the primary keeper of the list and person with a radio) was communicating and verifying the bike numbers from each group heading to the starting line. A simple solution in today's world could be to transmit the information digitally via text message or wireless network of some sort. I only deal with the fringes of this stuff, but it seems something simple could be put together.

As for verbal communication to the overall group: PA important and semi-important info across the PA (weather stoppage, start of a 'liner run, need for parts, etc) to communicate across the pits as well as via whatever radio transmission is in use.   My preference is via CB garbled messages can be prompted for reiteration. Though the reception via AM or FM seem to be better and are less disrupted.

[hawkwind]

The DLRA intends to use a similar setup ,we were going to trial it last march ,but nature conspired to stop the trial , our system, 1 or 2 pre stage lines in or parallel to the pits , vehicles released in groups of 10/15 , to the starting area , 3 staging lines at the start ,line 1 for short course, line 2 for long course and the 3rd line for any streamliners or backup record runs , short course vehicles run first then long and others as required ,this is for a single course , we are also considering setting up 2 courses if our entries continue to increase , but would use the same system . We tried a list system and the majority of entrants disliked it .I hope to make it to bubs one day and will monitor how you work through these issues 
Gary

[landracing]

Now here is something to think about. FIM runs, mainly streamliners.

I have been going thru a scenario in my head for a long time, and there are some trade off's in a plan.

It has been said that all entrants are treated the same, no matter FIM or AMA. Then this would have to include that streamliners get no special attention. However, I do see the point that when they are read they get to go, I have no problems with that. their records are the hardest to set and damnit they do deserve the course priority to run.

Now the question is once down the track they have two hours to return. And those particular (FIM attempts) should not have to goto impound. Work on vehicle at end of track. They have two hours to return. If they want to utilize the time to work on the vehicle lets say for 1 1/2 hours. Do you continue to run vehicles down the course for AMA records?
How many do you stage to run. And an instance would be when Leslie went down on her bike it shuts the course down for a minimum i would guess 1/2 hour. So if the FIM liner went down and the clocks ticking, they want 1 1/2 hours to work on vehicle and it leaves them 1/2 hour to get down the track, prep etc. Do we continue to run lets says anther group of 10 riders for AMA qualifying? I know that Denis likes to shut the course down for the whole 2 hours or until the liner makes the return pass. This is to ensure there are NO course holdups. But is it fair to the rest of the entrants? Or do you quit running 1/2 to the end of the 2 hour time frame?
Can someone be specific on what they did this year when a FIM liner went down the track? Did they shut it down? Or did they continue to run qualifying?

Jon

[Sumner]

Now here is something to think about........

..............Now the question is once down the track they have two hours to return. And those particular (FIM attempts) should not have to goto impound. Work on vehicle at end of track. They have two hours to return. If they want to utilize the time to work on the vehicle lets say for 1 1/2 hours. Do you continue to run vehicles down the course for AMA records?.................................Jon

Last year (2006) they would work on the streamliners at the end of the track at the turnaround point.  What I wonder is say Ack is sitting down there getting ready to return and BUB runs in that direction.  What happens if their chutes fail and they can't stop by the 11 mile mark??  Does Chris just try and steer around all of the people down there??

And then when they do return is everyone out of the way back at the 0 mile, such as the long course bikes that have been running and those waiting to run while the guys at the other end or getting ready for their return??

Also sometimes they don't want the full 2 hours to service the liner before they return.

Jon you are right that the FIM runs sure can complicate things, especially with the event growing like it has, but I don't think Dennis would put it on without them and as has been mentioned this is about the only event for the public where you can run FIM.

Now I do have the solution and e-mailed it to Dennis last year with no reply. 

First run an 11 mile (when available) international course for FIM and FIA.  Yes let those car guys that want to spend the money and want to run FIA come and run.  Can you think of the coverage that would garner with BUB, Ack, Sam, Burkland, Nish, etc. all running at the same meet on the same track at the same time.

Second setup a second long/short course like was run at Speed Week this year and run in one direction only.  Everyone would stage like at Speed Week at the 0 and either run to the 3 or the 5.  Return runs in the morning except for the last day.  AMA needs to seriously considering changing the way their record runs go if they want to promote the growth of this event.

Third if there is room setup a RWB course or have them run the long/short course just to the 2 mile.

Personally I would limit the FIA cars to ones that have shown they could run over 300 mph that would limit the cars and not end up with dozens that want to just get a FIA record.  So realistcally you would have fewer bikes/cars on the FIM/FIA course than the long/short course, but the entry fees could be higher there, maybe they are now, to help pay for the cost of the course.  Some of the cars that have been trying to rent the salt to run on private time would now maybe have an alternative that wouldn't cost as much and still cut the cost down for Manning.

I think with that type of "high speed" shootout for the bike and car streamliners the revenue from spectators would also go up.

Just some thoughts,

Sum

[Rocky R]

"What I wonder is say Ack is sitting down there getting ready to return and BUB runs in that direction.  What happens if their chutes fail and they can't stop by the 11 mile mark??  Does Chris just try and steer around all of the people down there??"

Interesting scenario, especially since Big Red is notorious for parachute failures.

Actually, with an eleven mile course, there is really no issue of getting the bike stopped by the end of the last mile. 5 miles to get her stopped is plenty for a motorcycle streamliner, even without parachutes. On a 290 mph run in Big Red in its early days, we were able to stop without the parachutes on a 9 mile course with ample room to spare. For cars, I'd imagine that would be different given the extra weight. They'd probably need more real estate.

[bak189]

I do not believe the BUB would allow car streamliners to compete, yes, it would make for a great show, but after all Denis has worked very hard to make the BUB a all M/C effort.
But I do believe that using the RWYB course for one-way AMA record runs would move things along.....make the RWYB course 5 miles long........
RWYB turns off at the 3 mile.....AMA record runs go the full 5 miles.  If your bike needs the "long course" (only after prove to the on site officials
that you need the long-course,,,,,,,no 140mph bikes on the 10mile course)  you get to race the long course.....or for that matter you run over, say,
180mph on the 5 mile course......you get a sticker....................you than move up to the 10mile course........certainly keep the small-bikes on RWYB.
Also, to move things along, have Tech. make sure the bike presented is "rideable".....no W handlebars...........no foot rests way-up on the rear fender......make sure the bike can clear the course
and NOT have to wait for their pit-crew to get it off the track.......................... in other words NO Rollie Free bikes  (sorry Rollie)
..