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Author Topic: BUB Operation  (Read 19045 times)
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landracing
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« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2007, 02:54:33 PM »

LynnK,

Welcome to the website, and thank you for your thoughts on info on the meet and the things that happened there thru your eye's as a first timer to the salt.
Keep the info coming.

Jon
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aswracing
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« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2007, 03:04:45 PM »

Ok, then a solution that can be proposed would be run 10 short course vehicles, then run 10 long course vehicles.

More than 90% of the vehicles are short course. So if you do this, you're giving the long course vehicles much, much, much more opportunity to run.

Quote
Both long and short both deserve the right to run, but why penalize the long course vehicle for being faster.

You're not penalizing them if you put them in the same line. You're giving everyone equal opportunity to run regardless of whether they're long or short.

Quote
The lines would be shorter and you would probably get more runs in the meet if you were a long course vehicle, due to the shorter lines.

That's exactly what happened. The way they were running it, since there were so many fewer people waiting for the long course, they got cycled through much faster. They could make multiple runs a day while those of us in the short course tow rig line waited 48 hours.

Quote
Want more runs, make your bike faster to qualify for the long course.

So you're proposing a system by which some get more opportunity to run than others. THAT'S exactly what I'm so emphatically opposed to. Everyone pays the same entry fee, everyone deserves the same opportunity to run.

If they intentionally make a system by which some get preference over others, I will not attend the event, it's that simple. In fact, the only way I'll go back at all if I believe they're putting something in place to give everyone equal opportunity, and I believe what they're doing will work.
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landracing
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« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2007, 03:14:07 PM »

Aaron,

I see your point, so what you are saying it have everybody stage at like the short course start on return road, long or short all in the same line. Then when they need people they release lets say 10 vehicles, short course goes over to the staging area, and the long course vehicle travels down the 3 miles to the long course start.  Start running those vehicles out of short course lets say there are 8 short and 2 long. Then when those 8 short vehicles go, then move onto the 2 long course vehicles. While the 2 long course vehicles are making their runs, pre-stage lets the next 10 vehicles goto staging area. Short course vehicles would be ready to run after the 2 long course bikes in previous group get done, and this allows enough time for next long course vehicles to get down to the long course start.

Is this what you are thinking?

Just trying to get a mental image, and I could see that working out.

jon
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lynnk
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« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2007, 03:26:24 PM »

Lynn King # 200 MPS
Post two

In regards to how many tracks to run. The problem, just ask the ACK machine or Valerie, or me.
Over use of the salt. The sulution, as has been stated before, multiple courses. The problem, the weather
wasn't kind to us this year. Dennis had his hands full just trying to keep up what we had. His crew did
a GREAT job with what they had to work with. 350 entrants showed up, 150 more than expected.
The volunteer thing is a tough one. I know that the Bub crew is fully aware and making plans for next year. The best we can do is support their decisions and offer all the help we can. Not being there and
criticizing the way it went seens a bit wrong to this old guy. I appreciate that this thread is here to suggest and make recomendations. Let's try to see that this info is not wasted on the choir and it gets
digested to a usuable form to be forwarded to those that CAN make a change.
Re: going too far down course, all riders were asked to exit as soon as practical. Most adheared, some
didn't. I'm sure it wasn't malichis. A warning would be in order. All under 150 on the RWB is OK too. But I
think the course would have hurt more people that way. Track conditions considered.
I thought the pre-stage and staging went OK, the problem was the mystery list. Suggestion made earlier.
From what I saw/heard, as a ham radio operator, the communications was not too bad. BUT we did need
a qualfied flight control officer running the tower.
I'll try to add more constructive thoughts as this thread evolves.
Thanks for reading,
Lynn King
Anacortes WA #200 MPS
Personal best 184, salt best 166.7
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Sumner
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« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2007, 03:38:58 PM »

...................Then when they need people they release lets say 10 vehicles, short course goes over to the staging area, and the long course vehicle travels down the 3 miles to the long course start.  Start running those vehicles out of short course lets say there are 8 short and 2 long. Then when those 8 short vehicles go, then move onto the 2 long course vehicles. While the 2 long course vehicles are making their runs, pre-stage lets the next 10 vehicles go to staging area. Short course vehicles would be ready to run after the 2 long course bikes in previous group get done, and this allows enough time for next long course vehicles to get down to the long course start.

Is this what you are thinking?.....................jon

That would work, I think you got it figured out  smiley ,

Sum
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landracing
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« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2007, 03:55:58 PM »

The one thing to remember if this would be used sumner is, that some vehicles do tow to the line, some need prep time.

And let me fill others in on the procedure for prestage, stage and start.

The prestage is just where all the vehicles gather, then you are moved over to the staging area, which is a single ez-up area. This area is approx 50 yards from the course. when they are ready for a vehicle, they let the vehicle under its own power move to the course start, which for the short course is right on the course. Then they are released from there. Once that vehicle leaves, then the next vehicle can go over to that area and wait for the signal that they can start the run.

Now, there are some who tow their vehicles, and do not have a turning radius to go from staging to the start line, without making a very huge circle. Some need to unload on the start line, point their vehicle down the course and go.

These vehicles would be the last one of the groups of 10 to make a run. They should be able to goto the start line and start unloading, while they are running the other vehicles in the group.

If runs takes 3 minutes per run, and you have 8 people on the short course staging area, then a person who has to unload from trailer and was last one of that group to go, has effectively approx 20 minutes to be ready. More then enough time. I can unload my bike, put leathers on, put ice in intercooler tank, start the bike and be ready to run 5-10 minutes max. So there is ample time to do this.

Jon
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JackD
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« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2007, 04:04:27 PM »

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« Last Edit: September 20, 2007, 04:27:25 PM by landracing » Logged

"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
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aswracing
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« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2007, 05:16:28 PM »


I see your point, so what you are saying it have everybody stage at like the short course start on return road, long or short all in the same line. Then when they need people they release lets say 10 vehicles, short course goes over to the staging area, and the long course vehicle travels down the 3 miles to the long course start.  Start running those vehicles out of short course lets say there are 8 short and 2 long. Then when those 8 short vehicles go, then move onto the 2 long course vehicles. While the 2 long course vehicles are making their runs, pre-stage lets the next 10 vehicles goto staging area. Short course vehicles would be ready to run after the 2 long course bikes in previous group get done, and this allows enough time for next long course vehicles to get down to the long course start.

Is this what you are thinking?

Why are you making a distinction between short and long? I see no reason.

The guy in control simply counts the total number of bikes staged at the start lines (short + long), without regard for how many are at which. Below some threshold, let's say 10, he directs that 10 bikes be released from pre-stage.

Those 10 leave pre-stage and go to the appropriate start line. Again, no distinction between short and long, the next 10 bikes leave pre-stage regardless of which course they'll be using.

Bikes run from either start line as they're ready.

When the total number of bikes staged drops down to 10 again, 10 more are released from pre-stage.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

No distinction at all as to which course a person is running. I don't see why it matters.
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landracing
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« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2007, 05:19:19 PM »

Re-read what I put Aaron, I basically said the same thing, release 10 vehicles (as an example), I was using 8 short, 2 long as examples on how they would run the vehicles. NO distinction in the pre-stage line between long and short, but when released from there, they goto the appropitate line. yes. We are on the same page. The number may vary on long and short being released, but 10 vehicles whatever the combination, etc etc.

Jon
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bak189
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« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2007, 05:35:15 PM »

#89 #189 #194 #1194
As most of you know I have been a very strong supporter of the all M/C BUB event since 2003.
In addition we have been a class sponsor since 2004.  But I certainly agree that something has to be done to make the event a success in future years.
! One waiting line as noted before...................
2 Run smaller displacement bikes on the RWYB course.
3 Run bikes competing for AMA National Record
2 times..... ONE-WAY only .....(FIM both ways, to keep with International Rules)
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landracing
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« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2007, 05:49:39 PM »

Bak,

Interesting thoughts on the AMA records.
Not only could you run them the same direction, like another sanctioning body does and no one questions the validity of those records, and you could run them the next morning also and start the day off with record returns. Or stop qualifying at a xx time at end of day, for record returns.

This brings up another issue, some participants who qualified on a AMA record, were NOT allowed to make a return pass in the same day because they ran out of time during the day.. This should NEVER happen, there should be ample time made that if you qualify for a record, you should be able to backup that record.
So if you have 20 vehicles who qualified during the day for a AMA record, and each takes 3 minutes to run, then you would need approx 1 hour to let them make a return passes. If you shut the qualifying down at 6 PM, no more qualifying that day, that should allow enough time to sundown to let them make return passes. The quit time of qualifying could be adjusted daily for the amount of qualifying bikes in impound. You could even make this work for return runs in opposite directions.

And I agree DO NOT change FIM standards for records. That would never happen anyways.

Jon
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aswracing
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« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2007, 06:16:34 PM »

Excellent points.

Part of the problem is that AMA rules consider you "qualified" if you run within 5% of the existing record. Now say you make a pass and come up a little short. What would you rather do, go make a backup pass even though you know you won't get the record, or get back in a line that takes all day to get through?

There were lots of unsuccessful backup passes going on while people waited. We did it ourselves.

That 5% rule ought to go away.
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landracing
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« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2007, 06:40:10 PM »

So what do you purpose Aaron, that for a AMA record you must exceed the record by .001, to be qualified for a return run, like the other organizations do it? Sounds great.
Because of the limited time on the salt to actually race, this seems like a logical solution to help with that. A vehicle making a return run has already proved performance by exceeding the record on the qualifying run.

Alot of this is already known, and being used in a current platform, and has proven to work.

Jon
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bak189
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« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2007, 06:48:41 PM »

This year, thanks to the BMW people, there appeared to be plenty of help...............but I counted at least 8 people working Tech......1 AMA steward........1 measure engine (Drew).......
and 6 standing around trying to read and understand the checksheets and rule book......
You don't need 2 people at the starting lines....1 with a HEADSET radio will do......1 person to run the staging lane, with a HEADSET radio is all that is required..........1 person on the pit PA that knows what he or she is doing.........1 person with a HEADSET radio for RWYB. staging.....use CB to get info. to the racers.........keep the rest of the help in the pits so they can rotate out.
Have LOOOOONG meeting with the Tech. inspectors prior to the event, to explain what they are looking at.....and explain the checksheet to them.........so I don't have to!!!!!!!!!!
And why do the pits, have to be in the measured Mile/Kilo (spectators....very few) ?  Put the pits between the start of the long and short course with RWYB on the other side.....shorter drive from the "boat dock" .....shorter drive to the starting line.......................................
And this is a BIG ONE in my book, have Tech. make sure the bike that is presented to Tech is
rideable.........I know of at least one bike that took two people to get it pointed down the course,
and after making a run the rider could not clear the course untlll the crew showed up.......causing a long delay......................Tech. should be more than going by the "checksheet"   End of Sermon B.B.

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JackD
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« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2007, 07:33:46 PM »

Bob forgets the bikes run in both directions and are equal distance to the appropriate starting line from a position in the middle.
Prior to the recent BUB events, there was never a minimum speed required for 1 leg of a 2 way run for either FIM or AMA.
It was an AMA practice only during events hosted by SCTA to control the number of runs within the regular meet, and never FIM or FIA, except as a courtesy.
A 2 way average was all that was required within the same day for AMA and 2 hours from start to complete for FIM.
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"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"
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