(Note: LANDRACING.COM donations are not tax deductible)


This is a public forum. The opinions expressed here don't
necessarily reflect the feelings of The Folks That Run The Site (that's us)
unless we explicitly say so, ok?


Author Topic: Wheelbase, spacing and handling  (Read 17597 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Sumner

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4071
  • Age: 76
  • Location: Blanding, Utah
  • Blanding, Ut..a small dot in the middle of nowhere
    • http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/sumnerindex.html
Re: Wheelbase, spacing and handling
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2007, 01:36:32 PM »


Borrow a copy of "The Leading Edge" as there are some interesting things about nose sweep angles in it that seem to indicate narrowing the front in may not be advantageous.

I just won a copy of that book on Ebay,less than $6 including shipping.

You got a deal.  Most of it is over my head, but there is enough to be learned that it is the best book I've bought on aero and even at the list price could maybe save you a lot of money/mistakes.

Good to see you on here,

Sum

Offline JGMagoo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 65
  • Age: 80
  • Location: Colorado
Re: Wheelbase, spacing and handling
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2007, 02:27:14 PM »
tortise,
Lakesters DO fall under "Special Construction". 

P.44, 2007 rule book.

JG
Growing old is mandatory. Growing up is optional.

Offline Jonny Hotnuts

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1522
Re: Wheelbase, spacing and handling
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2007, 06:43:27 PM »
No luck with poop bay, I could only find a new copy for 99$ or a used one for 179$ on Amazon (seriously the used cost more....go figure).

If anyone has a copy I could borrow....I will make it worth your while.
Or is someone has a copy they want to sell I would be interested if the price was decent.


I more I think about it I have to agree that a graduated from narrow front end is not the best idea. It would surely increase surface friction up the nose. I guess what I am trying to learn is what is the most efficient nose that can be built on a car 5' wide without the limitations of front wheels or engine.
The main reason why I want to move the front wheels closer is because I can still maintain a good amount of steering ability and still have the wells covered.

I really like the nose on the Blowfish and the late model Camaro but they are designed with the motor and wheels where they are. I am not saying they are not perfect....they very well may be but I have the ability to do anything to the front and what know if I can surpass their aero ability because I don't have a front engine and can add about 4' in length to the wheelbase. I am about to undertake major car surgery and don't want to be a pissen' and a moanin' next year because I did not get it right on paper and have to do it again.

Thanks for the comments.


jonny_hotnuts@hotmail.com

"Sometimes it is impossible to deal with her, but most of the time she is very sweet, and if you caress her properly she will sing beautifully."
*Andres Segovia
(when Im not working on the car, I am ususally playing classical guitar)

Offline Unkl Ian

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
Re: Wheelbase, spacing and handling
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2007, 07:51:46 PM »
Check these auction numbers:
250069319858 $.99 + shipping
6913318403 $8.45 + shipping

Also check Half.com for books.
I guess the answer is "a Secret" .

Offline hotrod

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1231
    • Black Horse photo
Re: Wheelbase, spacing and handling
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2007, 09:35:43 PM »
All the info I have seen shows the lowest drag shapes at subsonic speeds have noses that are elliptical (look at the nose profiles of all the low speed passenger jets, bombers, and commercial jets).

Pointed only looks fast, and depending on your side profile will increase the sensitivity to off axis air flow (side winds).

Larry
« Last Edit: September 08, 2007, 02:48:51 AM by hotrod »

Offline Unkl Ian

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
Re: Wheelbase, spacing and handling
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2007, 10:01:43 PM »
Knowing nothing about aerodynamics,I've often thought the front half
of a car (like /CC) should be shaped like the front half of an air foil.





I guess the answer is "a Secret" .

Offline Sumner

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4071
  • Age: 76
  • Location: Blanding, Utah
  • Blanding, Ut..a small dot in the middle of nowhere
    • http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/sumnerindex.html
Re: Wheelbase, spacing and handling
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2007, 10:55:44 PM »
No luck with poop bay, I could only find a new copy for 99$ or a used one for 179$ on Amazon (seriously the used cost more....go figure).

If anyone has a copy I could borrow....I will make it worth your while.
Or is someone has a copy they want to sell I would be interested if the price was decent.


I more I think about it I have to agree that a graduated from narrow front end is not the best idea. It would surely increase surface friction up the nose. I guess what I am trying to learn is what is the most efficient nose that can be built on a car 5' wide without the limitations of front wheels or engine.
The main reason why I want to move the front wheels closer is because I can still maintain a good amount of steering ability and still have the wells covered.

I really like the nose on the Blowfish and the late model Camaro but they are designed with the motor and wheels where they are. I am not saying they are not perfect....they very well may be but I have the ability to do anything to the front and what know if I can surpass their aero ability because I don't have a front engine and can add about 4' in length to the wheelbase. I am about to undertake major car surgery and don't want to be a pissen' and a moanin' next year because I did not get it right on paper and have to do it again.

Thanks for the comments.


You have a lot of front overhang now in front of the wheels/tires.  I don't thing the car has to be much longer just the wheelbase.  Move the wheels/tires in so you can cover them like you suggested and then take the "idea" that the Blowfish front suggests and copy that.

Most opinions about the ideal shape is still the teardrop.  Make the curve around the front side to side the shape of the bottom of the teardrop like was suggested in the post above.  That will form the rounded shape you see on Blowfish.  Then cut down into that from the cowl forward like they also did. That will get some of the air down the sides of the car and some over the top.  I guess you will have to guess how much you want where.

They could have covered their tires and still be within the comp coupe rules, but I think style went before that decision.  The little side flaps in front of the wheel-wells tried to overcome that, but still covering them would have been best and you can do that.

I'll try and find a picture I did for our Stude and the Yellow one and post it if possible.  It is where I hope we end up eventually.


c ya,

Sum

Offline Sumner

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4071
  • Age: 76
  • Location: Blanding, Utah
  • Blanding, Ut..a small dot in the middle of nowhere
    • http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/sumnerindex.html
Re: Wheelbase, spacing and handling
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2007, 11:09:08 PM »
Ok some photoshop type work using Microsoft paint and another cheap program:

The Wash. yellow stude as it is (they are having too much down-force issues):

     

What I might do with it if it was mine and personally is the direction I suggest you go in:

     

What I'd like to see us do and it is hard to make out, but it would be similar to the yellow one and not come down quite as much as it appears, but would have more going to the sides:

     

Just ideas,

Sum

dwarner

  • Guest
Re: Wheelbase, spacing and handling
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2007, 10:44:47 AM »
JHN,

I don't have a picture but, maybe Sumner has a shot in his archieves of Mike Cook's Alfa. This car was originally built by Rich Manchen and run By Rich, Mike Manghelli and Lee Kennedy.

Take a look at the front end and wheel wells. Just my contribution to get you to the AA license.

DW

Offline Unkl Ian

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
Re: Wheelbase, spacing and handling
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2007, 01:51:08 PM »
This one ?



Another Alfa:

I guess the answer is "a Secret" .

Offline JGMagoo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 65
  • Age: 80
  • Location: Colorado
Re: Wheelbase, spacing and handling
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2007, 02:54:25 PM »
I was able to obtain a copy of "The Leading Edge" at my local library. They didn't have it on the shelf, but were able to order it through the system. It took about a week.

When I 'finished' reading it I was sure happy that I didn't pay anything for it!

Way deep, and a lot of it would not apply to a lot of classes.

Great if you are building a human-powered bicycle I guess.

My 2-cents worth.

JGMagoo
Growing old is mandatory. Growing up is optional.

Offline Sumner

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4071
  • Age: 76
  • Location: Blanding, Utah
  • Blanding, Ut..a small dot in the middle of nowhere
    • http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/sumnerindex.html
Re: Wheelbase, spacing and handling
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2007, 03:20:47 PM »
I was able to obtain a copy of "The Leading Edge" at my local library. They didn't have it on the shelf, but were able to order it through the system. It took about a week.

When I 'finished' reading it I was sure happy that I didn't pay anything for it!

Way deep, and a lot of it would not apply to a lot of classes.

Great if you are building a human-powered bicycle I guess.

My 2-cents worth.

JGMagoo

Yep it can mostly be applied to streamliners and lakesters, but what you can do with the front of comp coupes, mod. roadsters, etc.. can be helpful. I look at it from the point of view how much is it going to cost me to make the HP to overcome a dumb mistake that could have been avoided  :wink:,

Sum

dwarner

  • Guest
Re: Wheelbase, spacing and handling
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2007, 11:30:04 PM »
The red one.

DW

Offline SPARKY

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6757
  • Age: 78
  • Location: Phoenix
Re: Wheelbase, spacing and handling
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2007, 08:08:54 PM »
Wheelwell openings...If you are going to have wheelwells---go look at a new Corvette---not the Z06---notice how close to the outside of the car the wheels and tires are and how the wheelwell body panel goes flat surface to a flat surface behind---from what I have been told you want to get the tires and body sides in as flat a plane as possible---most classes allow you to radius the wheel wells--no reason not to stick those suckers out there.
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust and RUST!!!

The # 1 issue is: TO KEEP THE REPUBLIC      
           tncsg.org     mrspowell.org

ELECTION  INTEGRITY  PROJECT
eip-ca.com  EIPAz.org  eipnv.

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

Offline panic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 809
  • Age: 74
  • Location: Lynbrook, New York
    • My tech papers
Re: Wheelbase, spacing and handling
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2007, 12:22:07 PM »
          ..........
« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 02:56:55 PM by panic »